East Midlands franchise won by Abellio

whhistle · 11 May 2019

StaffsWCML said:
<snip>
They now have a monopoly of sheer incompetence over the whole of the midlands local rail network.

And people call me grumpy!

Cross Country is run by Arriva.
Virgin Trains is run by Virgin Trains for the time being.
Transport for Wales is run by... errr.. TfW.
Northern is run by Arriva.

"The Midlands" isn't just Birmingham ya know

Transport for West Midlands will eventually take over West Midlands Railway services (whether that means allowing Abellio to run it as a consession I don't know).

But if you don't like the same parent company owning lots of brands, you should take a look at what Pepsi Co owns, or KP, Unilever, Coca-Cola, or even Walkers (there's not many crisp brands that aren't owned by Walkers!). All have the same parent company, but operate quite differently.

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hwl · 11 May 2019

whhistle said:
And people call me grumpy!

Cross Country is run by Arriva.
Virgin Trains is run by Virgin Trains for the time being.
Transport for Wales is run by... errr.. TfW.
Northern is run by Arriva.

"The Midlands" isn't just Birmingham ya know

Transport for West Midlands will eventually take over West Midlands Railway services (whether that means allowing Abellio to run it as a consession I don't know).

But if you don't like the same parent company owning lots of brands, you should take a look at what Pepsi Co owns, or KP, Unilever, Coca-Cola, or even Walkers (there's not many crisp brands that aren't owned by Walkers!). All have the same parent company, but operate quite differently.

Pepsi have owned Walkers for over 25 years...

59CosG95 · 11 May 2019

RealTrains07 said:
WMT is a little different to LNR which like EMR franchise is fully controlled by abellio.

No it isn't. It's a 3-company consortium of Abellio (70%), JR East (15%) and Mitsui (15%).

RealTrains07 · 11 May 2019

59CosG95 said:
No it isn't. It's a 3-company consortium of Abellio (70%), JR East (15%) and Mitsui (15%).

I meant controlled as that its not gonna be taken over by TfWM.

EMR like LNR is another franchise abellio can own and then try for renewel at the end of 2027

thenorthern · 12 May 2019

Just seen on BBC East Midlands Today that Arriva is suing the government over the franchise decision.

ainsworth74 · 12 May 2019

And that can be discussed here.

59CosG95 · 12 May 2019

RealTrains07 said:
I meant controlled as that its not gonna be taken over by TfWM.

EMR like LNR is another franchise abellio can own and then try for renewel at the end of 2027

I know what you're trying to convey here - LNwR can indeed be re-let as a new, separate franchise, and that WMR will be taken over by TfWM, but the existing WM franchise (WMT, controlling LNwR and WMR) isn't 100% Abellio-owned.

This is all rather beside the point though

StaffsWCML · 13 May 2019

whhistle said:
And people call me grumpy!

Cross Country is run by Arriva.
Virgin Trains is run by Virgin Trains for the time being.
Transport for Wales is run by... errr.. TfW.
Northern is run by Arriva.

"The Midlands" isn't just Birmingham ya know

Transport for West Midlands will eventually take over West Midlands Railway services (whether that means allowing Abellio to run it as a consession I don't know).

But if you don't like the same parent company owning lots of brands, you should take a look at what Pepsi Co owns, or KP, Unilever, Coca-Cola, or even Walkers (there's not many crisp brands that aren't owned by Walkers!). All have the same parent company, but operate quite differently.

I don't think I said they are the only operator. They have a significant presence which they do, especially at local stations where Cross Country and Virgin do not call.

I am not concerned about one company owning all the routes if they are semi competent, the issue here is that Abellio are incompetent on every franchise they run, they have delivered on probably 1% of their promises made so far. They should get their house in order before being awarded more contracts and offering more empty promises.

Sprinter153 · 13 May 2019

StaffsWCML said:
I am not concerned about one company owning all the routes if they are semi competent, the issue here is that in my opinion Abellio are incompetent on every franchise they run, they have delivered on probably 1% of their promises made so far. They should get their house in order before being awarded more contracts and offering more empty promises.

I fixed that for you.

In WMR’s Customer Report (p3) if you have a cursory look at the list of commitments a decent percentage of those scheduled for completion by now have been auctioned or are at least underway. Still more will come to fruition at the upcoming timetable change. Not all by any means, but an order of magnitude higher than your hyperbolic 1%.

In fact from my own observations you would be hard pressed to notice any significant deterioration in the management of the West Midlands franchise since Abellio took over. Their correspondence rate of 27 complaints per 100,000 journeys doesn’t seem to indicate any large scale problem either, other than in the impossible standards of those desperately trying to find fault with them because they’re not Virgin, or whoever.

In fact, I wouldn’t call CrossCountry Voyagers clean - one of your regular complaints about Abellio - and I’ve never found any train operator’s WiFi to be much cop.

Nick Nation · 13 May 2019

Aictos said:
With the Corby EMU services will they call at both Luton Airport Parkway AND Luton?

Or will they plan to drop the Luton call in favor of more stops at Parkway?

Unclear at the moment - Stagecoach's plan was for the Corbys to call at Luton and LAP alternately. I've written to Abellio for clarification on this and other matters.

StaffsWCML · 13 May 2019

Sprinter153 said:
I fixed that for you.

In WMR’s Customer Report (p3) if you have a cursory look at the list of commitments a decent percentage of those scheduled for completion by now have been auctioned or are at least underway. Still more will come to fruition at the upcoming timetable change. Not all by any means, but an order of magnitude higher than your hyperbolic 1%.

In fact from my own observations you would be hard pressed to notice any significant deterioration in the management of the West Midlands franchise since Abellio took over. Their correspondence rate of 27 complaints per 100,000 journeys doesn’t seem to indicate any large scale problem either, other than in the impossible standards of those desperately trying to find fault with them because they’re not Virgin, or whoever.

In fact, I wouldn’t call CrossCountry Voyagers clean - one of your regular complaints about Abellio - and I’ve never found any train operator’s WiFi to be much cop.

A document made by Abellio themselves! That should be impartial and accurate. Using the 1% I am talking all of their current franchises, what have they delivered for Scotrail except for Chaos? Where are all the new trains for GA?

I haven't seen any particular deterioration (although in my opinion the trains are dirtier) but it is no better that it was previously. Surely we should be 'improving' these things. The service is mediocre, the trains are mediocre, some of the staff are good some are awful.

In my view all of the Abellio services are worse that the current EMT ones, that is the point. They are certainly not delivering excellence, offering us anything exceptional or different. Their record on Scotrail and GA also seems to be patchy at best.

CrossCountry trains are dirty yes, I returned from Crewe on a London NorthWestern train the other day and every seat was dirty, the floor was filthy with litter, the train was late by around 10 minutes. I am not being told that is a good service because it isnt. I am not sure why people are so protective of the Mediocracy of a Dutch State owned rail company, they are awful and should be called as such until they prove otherwise.

Of course the record of train delivery may not be their fault more that of the DfT however, some of the basic stuff they fail to do is.

RealTrains07 · 13 May 2019

StaffsWCML said:
A document made by Abellio themselves! That should be impartial and accurate. Using the 1% I am talking all of their current franchises, what have they delivered for Scotrail except for Chaos? Where are all the new trains for GA?

I haven't seen any particular deterioration (although in my opinion the trains are dirtier) but it is no better that it was previously. Surely we should be 'improving' these things. The service is mediocre, the trains are mediocre, some of the staff are good some are awful.

In my view all of the Abellio services are worse that the current EMT ones, that is the point. They are certainly not delivering excellence, offering us anything exceptional or different. Their record on Scotrail and GA also seems to be patchy at best.

CrossCountry trains are dirty yes, I returned from Crewe on a London NorthWestern train the other day and every seat was dirty, the floor was filthy with litter, the train was late by around 10 minutes. I am not being told that is a good service because it isnt. I am not sure why people are so protective of the Mediocracy of a Dutch State owned rail company, they are awful and should be called as such until they prove otherwise.

Of course the record of train delivery may not be their fault more that of the DfT however, some of the basic stuff they fail to do is.

We all know from experience that when new franchises start improvements always start slow and little then improve as the years go on. Yes abellio may have dirty trains and trains that dont run on time but really 99% of the time the reasons abellios trains are delayed/cancelled is due to problems that are out of their control. Abellio are going to be refurbishing the LNR trains soon enough, the first one due to be complete this month actually.

We shouldnt be judging EMRs performance as a franchise untill after it starts as for all we know Abellio might get their game together and heavily improve EMR compared to what stagecoach did??

yorksrob · 13 May 2019

My main experiences of Abellio - Northern - had a good stab in highly restrictive circumstances (New Labour's ludicrous "no growth" franchise), also Greater Anglia, where they seem to manage reasonable fares and have greatly improved their rolling stock over the past few years.

The Midland Mainline strikes me as the sort of franchise where they could do ok - (provided the Gmt doesn't force them to do anything stupid).

StaffsWCML · 13 May 2019

RealTrains07 said:
We all know from experience that when new franchises start improvements always start slow and little then improve as the years go on. Yes abellio may have dirty trains and trains that dont run on time but really 99% of the time the reasons abellios trains are delayed/cancelled is due to problems that are out of their control. Abellio are going to be refurbishing the LNR trains soon enough, the first one due to be complete this month actually.

We shouldnt be judging EMRs performance as a franchise untill after it starts as for all we know Abellio might get their game together and heavily improve EMR compared to what stagecoach did??

They 'might'. What I am seeing is evidence to the contrary though. The facts suggest they haven't delivered much on any of their current franchises, feedback from customers suggests at best they have stagnated but in many areas the services appear to be getting worse.

I would say London Northwestern's trains have become less reliable since they took over.

Stagecoach without setting the world on fire and using old trains were a perfectly competent operator. The trains mainly ran on time and were mostly reasonably clean and well maintained.

They will be gone soon anyway so I suppose we will just have to put up with whatever mediocracy is served up.

ag51ruk · 13 May 2019

StaffsWCML said:
A document made by Abellio themselves! That should be impartial and accurate. Using the 1% I am talking all of their current franchises, what have they delivered for Scotrail except for Chaos? Where are all the new trains for GA?

As we all like facts rather than guesswork, how about a document produced by the Scottish Government about compliance with franchise obligations?

https://www.gov.scot/publications/foi-18-02996/

The PDF linked to from that page lists every franchise obligation, plus a handy summary on page 1 of the status when it was written (November 2018). Out of 272 commitments, 128 are complete and 115 have a "green" status. There are around 10% which are amber or red.

https://www.gov.scot/binaries/conte...ocument/FOI-18-02996+-+related+documents+.pdf

StaffsWCML · 13 May 2019

ag51ruk said:
As we all like facts rather than guesswork, how about a document produced by the Scottish Government about compliance with franchise obligations?

https://www.gov.scot/publications/foi-18-02996/

The PDF linked to from that page lists every franchise obligation, plus a handy summary on page 1 of the status when it was written (November 2018). Out of 272 commitments, 128 are complete and 115 have a "green" status. There are around 10% which are amber or red.

https://www.gov.scot/binaries/content/documents/govscot/publications/foi-eir-release/2018/11/foi-18-02996/documents/foi-18-02996---related-documents/foi-18-02996---related-documents/govscot:document/FOI-18-02996+-+related+documents+.pdf

So they have met some targets on a government sheet? Excellent. Are the train services better and do the customers think so?

https://www.scotrail.co.uk/about-scotrail/how-were-performing/customer-satisfaction

https://www.eadt.co.uk/news/greater-anglia-passengers-dissatisfied-1-5870244

https://www.westmidlandsrailway.co.uk/about-us/our-performance/satisfaction-survey-results

It seems every service they are running is in decline. Which certainly corresponds with my experience.

yorksrob · 13 May 2019

Having just travelled on the Midland mainline enjoying reasonable ticket prices, comfortable rolling stock (125) and a splendid, reasonably priced food menu, Abellio have a tough act to follow, as far as I'm concerned.

cactustwirly · 13 May 2019

yorksrob said:
Having just travelled on the Midland mainline enjoying reasonable ticket prices, comfortable rolling stock (125) and a splendid, reasonably priced food menu, Abellio have a tough act to follow, as far as I'm concerned.

EMT aren't that much cheaper than LNER these days (advances from Leicester to London are £19 for most trains), and I wouldn't call a Rail Gourmet trolley neither "splendid" nor "reasonably priced"
The East Midlands is a relatively easy franchise to run, and Stagecoach are very average, ie some of the trains are dirty and tatty.
Those are my thoughts, as a semi-regular EMT passenger

GA seems a well run franchise, so I'm hoping the bar can be raised

Qwerty133 · 13 May 2019

cactustwirly said:
EMT aren't that much cheaper than LNER these days (advances from Leicester to London are £19 for most trains), and I wouldn't call a Rail Gourmet trolley neither "splendid" nor "reasonably priced"
The East Midlands is a relatively easy franchise to run, and Stagecoach are very average, ie some of the trains are dirty and tatty.
Those are my thoughts, as a semi-regular EMT passenger

GA seems a well run franchise, so I'm hoping the bar can be raised

Many passengers will be finding EMT rather cheap at weekends at present (especially north of Leicester). On a half-empty train between Leicester and Sheffield last night I heard 2 separate groups of passengers discuss how they no longer purchase tickets at weekends as they are never checked and the barriers remain open. Unfortunately, many members of EMT staff have for many years been getting away with not doing parts of their job and the current culture seems to be for many TMs to remain sat in first class rather than check tickets or otherwise make themselves known to passengers and RPIs seem to only work Monday-Friday or at least be much less present at weekends.

Bletchleyite · 13 May 2019

Qwerty133 said:
Many passengers will be finding EMT rather cheap at weekends at present (especially north of Leicester). On a half-empty train between Leicester and Sheffield last night I heard 2 separate groups of passengers discuss how they no longer purchase tickets at weekends as they are never checked and the barriers remain open. Unfortunately, many members of EMT staff have for many years been getting away with not doing parts of their job and the current culture seems to be for many TMs to remain sat in first class rather than check tickets or otherwise make themselves known to passengers and RPIs seem to only work Monday-Friday lunchtime.

Interesting that this is happening in the context of LNR now staffing most gatelines for the full period of service, albeit only with contract security staff as a passive deterrent as they aren't PF trained. This has had other advantages, such as the toilets at Bletchley now being open for the full period of service as well, because you can keep an eye on them from the barrier (and the staff might need them anyway).

Mugby · 14 May 2019

Qwerty133 said:
Many passengers will be finding EMT rather cheap at weekends at present (especially north of Leicester). On a half-empty train between Leicester and Sheffield last night I heard 2 separate groups of passengers discuss how they no longer purchase tickets at weekends as they are never checked and the barriers remain open. Unfortunately, many members of EMT staff have for many years been getting away with not doing parts of their job and the current culture seems to be for many TMs to remain sat in first class rather than check tickets or otherwise make themselves known to passengers and RPIs seem to only work Monday-Friday or at least be much less present at weekends.

I certainly havn't noticed that to be the case at Derby. It's very rare for the barriers to be open, they are usually operational and staffed until 9pm each evening.

I've always thought it rather odd, considering other, larger stations don't keep the barriers in use until that time of night.

cactustwirly · 14 May 2019

Mugby said:
I certainly havn't noticed that to be the case at Derby. It's very rare for the barriers to be open, they are usually operational and staffed until 9pm each evening.

I've always thought it rather odd, considering other, larger stations don't keep the barriers in use until that time of night.

Leicester's barriers are wide open after 7:50pm on weekdays

RealTrains07 · 14 May 2019

Mugby said:
I certainly havn't noticed that to be the case at Derby. It's very rare for the barriers to be open, they are usually operational and staffed until 9pm each evening.

I've always thought it rather odd, considering other, larger stations don't keep the barriers in use until that time of night.

cactustwirly said:
Leicester's barriers are wide open after 7:50pm on weekdays

At stoke on trent i have seen the barriers open at random intervals during the day when no staff are available. Not to great when you also have no ticket checks from train guards either.

Abellio arn’t that bad at things like this surely??

ForTheLoveOf · 14 May 2019

RealTrains07 said:
At stoke on trent i have seen the barriers open at random intervals during the day when no staff are available. Not to great when you also have no ticket checks from train guards either.

Abellio arn’t that bad at things like this surely??

Abellio don't manage Stoke-on-Trent station.

yorksrob · 14 May 2019

cactustwirly said:
EMT aren't that much cheaper than LNER these days (advances from Leicester to London are £19 for most trains), and I wouldn't call a Rail Gourmet trolley neither "splendid" nor "reasonably priced"
The East Midlands is a relatively easy franchise to run, and Stagecoach are very average, ie some of the trains are dirty and tatty.
Those are my thoughts, as a semi-regular EMT passenger

GA seems a well run franchise, so I'm hoping the bar can be raised

RailGourmet weren't running the trolley.

Table service was very good.

whhistle · 14 May 2019

StaffsWCML said:
I am not concerned about one company owning all the routes if they are semi competent, the issue here is that Abellio are incompetent on every franchise they run.

Could you objectively name any operator that isn't "incompetent"?
I'd suggest most are in one way or another.
Some are more vocalised than others. Notice how the whole Southern/GTR business isn't really around anymore? A couple of years back, there was something in the papers every other day.

whhistle · 14 May 2019

StaffsWCML said:
Stagecoach without setting the world on fire and using old trains were a perfectly competent operator. The trains mainly ran on time and were mostly reasonably clean and well maintained.

Define "competent" though.
From when I spoke to a station manager (at length), internally, they are far from competent.

43096 · 14 May 2019

whhistle said:
Define "competent" though.
From when I spoke to a station manager (at length), internally, they are far from competent.

That’s one opinion of one staff member who may be disgruntled for a reason.

On the other hand, when EMT have run their charity railtours, using staff who have volunteered to work in their own time, they get far more people offering their time than they need. I think that says rather more about the company and its staff.

StaffsWCML · 14 May 2019

whhistle said:
Could you objectively name any operator that isn't "incompetent"?
I'd suggest most are in one way or another.
Some are more vocalised than others. Notice how the whole Southern/GTR business isn't really around anymore? A couple of years back, there was something in the papers every other day.

I would say Stagecoach are reasonably competent, Virgin have set the bar without being perfect, LNER is not bad.

All of the Abellio franchises are getting worse as far as I can tell. They are far from being even semi competent. Scotrail has its own thread, GA has its own thread! I use London NortWestern or West Midlands trains every day and they never run to time table.

In balance I do feel all Train companies are fighting a losing battle with the unions.

cactustwirly said:
EMT aren't that much cheaper than LNER these days (advances from Leicester to London are £19 for most trains), and I wouldn't call a Rail Gourmet trolley neither "splendid" nor "reasonably priced"
The East Midlands is a relatively easy franchise to run, and Stagecoach are very average, ie some of the trains are dirty and tatty.
Those are my thoughts, as a semi-regular EMT passenger

GA seems a well run franchise, so I'm hoping the bar can be raised

The customer satisfaction surveys show GA to be anything but well run. I think there is a thread here about how bad pretty much every Abellio franchise is, yet we keep giving them a bigger slice of the cake! I would be disqualifying them from all bids until they deliver. To me basic service delivery or lack of it is the biggest ever 'non compliance'.

Qwerty133 said:
Unfortunately, many members of EMT staff have for many years been getting away with not doing parts of their job and the current culture seems to be for many TMs to remain sat in first class rather than check tickets or otherwise make themselves known to passengers and RPIs seem to only work Monday-Friday or at least be much less present at weekends.

How are Abellio going to stop this though? They wont be able to. You can discipline any of the members of the Union without getting a lot of grief (crazy I know), its more hassle than its worth for the management. I cant see how Abellio will change this.

Much of the problems in the railway are down to the stubbornness of the unions, I understand they want to protect their staff but in my experience they also protect the rubbish ones too. This isn't helping the majority of TOCs.

Bletchleyite · 14 May 2019

StaffsWCML said:
All of the Abellio franchises are getting worse as far as I can tell. They are far from being even semi competent. Scotrail has its own thread, GA has its own thread! I use London NortWestern or West Midlands trains every day and they never run to time table.

I don't find LNR to be as well-managed as LM were, but punctuality issues on the south WCML are, for now, caused not by incompetence but by there being no slack whatsoever in the line capacity.

From Sunday my view may change, though.

East Midlands franchise won by Abellio

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