Tailgating with a ticket

Lifelong · 6 May 2019

A quick question please.

I was running after a train tonight (which I subsequently missed). Ticket was right at the bottom of my bag. Barrier was open after a fellow passenger went through so I rushed through.

Gateline security (not directly employed) wasn’t at the barrier - was about 10 yards away and shouted after me, to which I shouted back ‘my ticket is in the bag’... once the train has gone he found me on the Platform.

He asked to see my ticket - I found it, which seemed to disappoint him. He then told me it was the 2nd time I’d done it (untrue) and that I had told him I’d buy the ticket on the train (patently untrue as I had the ticket in front of him). He then ‘forget about that’ and told me what I’d done was illegal, whether or not I had a ticket.

I was interested whether this was a hat trick of misunderstandings on his behalf, or whether this statement was actually correct? As I say the fact I had a ticket isn’t disputed here, and I don’t make a habit of running for trains in this manner...

Cheers

RailUK Forums

clagmonster · 6 May 2019

I don't have the ability to directly copy the byelaw on this device, but I can confirm that it is a byelaw offence to pass through a ticket barrier otyet than in the correct manner.

some bloke · 6 May 2019

Byelaw 9 (2) says,

"Where the entrance to or exit from any platform or station is via a manned or
an automatic ticket barrier no person shall enter or leave the station, except
with permission from an authorised person, without passing through the
barrier in the correct manner."

Which makes sense, because if you allowed people to squash in behind others that might cause inconvenience or risk, and if you allowed people to make it difficult to check tickets that might cause other problems.

Although the phrasing might be a bit puzzling, since it talks about entering or leaving the station rather than platforms or relevant parts of the station.

Gerald Fiennes · 8 May 2019

Although I think you are pretty unlucky to have been caught doing it: on LUL, it happens all the time and the barrier staff are generally asked not to intervene because of the risk of assault.

XCTurbostar · 8 May 2019

I do think that the attitude of the barrier staff was inadequate in this case. Saying accusing you of "It was the 2nd time you'd done it" is not professional and could be considered to be a threat against you.

Haywain · 8 May 2019

XCTurbostar said:
Saying accusing you of "It was the 2nd time you'd done it" is not professional and could be considered to be a threat against you.

It certainly isn't very professional but in no way is that a threat.

Atishyou · 9 May 2019

XCTurbostar said:
Saying accusing you of "It was the 2nd time you'd done it" is not professional and could be considered to be a threat against you.

My bold

Good one

XCTurbostar · 9 May 2019

Atishyou said:
My bold

Good one

In Hindsight, I shouldn't have worded it like that. It depends how the member of staff physically acted, if it was by pointing a finger and suggesting physical assault if he does it a third time, then I'm sure you'll agree with me that that is a threat.

Haywain · 9 May 2019

XCTurbostar said:
if it was by pointing a finger and suggesting physical assault if he does it a third time, then I'm sure you'll agree with me that that is a threat.

But the OP made no such suggestion.

Stigy · 9 May 2019

Lifelong said:
A quick question please.

I was running after a train tonight (which I subsequently missed). Ticket was right at the bottom of my bag. Barrier was open after a fellow passenger went through so I rushed through.

Gateline security (not directly employed) wasn’t at the barrier - was about 10 yards away and shouted after me, to which I shouted back ‘my ticket is in the bag’... once the train has gone he found me on the Platform.

He asked to see my ticket - I found it, which seemed to disappoint him. He then told me it was the 2nd time I’d done it (untrue) and that I had told him I’d buy the ticket on the train (patently untrue as I had the ticket in front of him). He then ‘forget about that’ and told me what I’d done was illegal, whether or not I had a ticket.

I was interested whether this was a hat trick of misunderstandings on his behalf, or whether this statement was actually correct? As I say the fact I had a ticket isn’t disputed here, and I don’t make a habit of running for trains in this manner...

Cheers

As has been said, Byelaw 9(2) relates to this offence. The fact that when he called after you, you stated the ticket was in your bag and carried on for your train, was technically a breach of Byelaw 18(2) also, although admittedly you did show a ticket when staff caught up with you so they’d probably not be too concerned with either offence in terms of enforcement.

Lifelong · 9 May 2019

Thanks for all your replies. Won’t be doing it again - but then again I hadn’t done it before. I was simply curious around the position with regards to this situation, and interesting there are specific bylaw(s) on it. Cheers

ASharpe · 10 May 2019

When I'm stuck behind someone faffing with a ticket while blocking the barriers at Leeds station I'll often put my card up to the reader to let them (and myself through). Particularly when they are blocking the wide gate and I need to get through with either the pram or bike. I don't think I should be held up because the station doesn't have enough barriers or staff.

A particular annoyance of mine is the gateline staff standing by the wide gate letting people through slowly.

sheff1 · 10 May 2019

asharpe said:
When I'm stuck behind someone faffing with a ticket while blocking the barriers at Leeds station I'll often put my card up to the reader to let them (and myself through).

That reminds me of the time my ticket was rejected at a barrier somewhere on the Southern Region and the guy behind tapped his card to open the gates and we both went through. Probably one or both of us were in breach of the Byelaws, but there were no staff around to care.

Stigy · 10 May 2019

asharpe said:
When I'm stuck behind someone faffing with a ticket while blocking the barriers at Leeds station I'll often put my card up to the reader to let them (and myself through). Particularly when they are blocking the wide gate and I need to get through with either the pram or bike. I don't think I should be held up because the station doesn't have enough barriers or staff.

A particular annoyance of mine is the gateline staff standing by the wide gate letting people through slowly.

It’s hardly the TOC’s fault for holding you up if by your own admission you say it’s people ‘faffing’ with their tickets that’s the problem. The problem is actually other people, like you, surely?

sheff1 · 10 May 2019

Stigy said:
It’s hardly the TOC’s fault for holding you up if by your own admission you say it’s people ‘faffing’ with their tickets that’s the problem. The problem is actually other people, like you, surely?

If there were no barriers there would be no faffing and no hold up ... who put the barriers in

?

farleigh · 10 May 2019

sheff1 said:
If there were no barriers there would be no faffing and no hold up ... who put the barriers in ?

Very good post. The TOC is entirely to blame and I am glad you set the record straight there

al78 · 13 May 2019

Stigy said:
It’s hardly the TOC’s fault for holding you up if by your own admission you say it’s people ‘faffing’ with their tickets that’s the problem. The problem is actually other people, like you, surely?

Perhaps we need an express barrier, like the express checkouts in supermarkets, where only people who can get through in no more than five seconds are allowed to use it. Anyone taking longer than five seconds gets fined 2^t pounds, where t is the excessive time taken in seconds.

Pumperkin · 13 May 2019

al78 said:
Perhaps we need an express barrier, like the express checkouts in supermarkets, where only people who can get through in no more than five seconds are allowed to use it. Anyone taking longer than five seconds gets fined 2^t pounds, where t is the excessive time taken in seconds.

Ouch.. 10 seconds delay = £1024. Unlucky if you just have a dodgy ticket that doesn't want to be read.

Incidentally, my ticket at Euston yesterday morning wouldn't let me through the barrier - however the person on the gate didn't even look at it as she let me through.

ASharpe · 13 May 2019

al78 said:
Perhaps we need an express barrier, like the express checkouts in supermarkets, where only people who can get through in no more than five seconds are allowed to use it. Anyone taking longer than five seconds gets fined 2^t pounds, where t is the excessive time taken in seconds.

5 seconds to use a barrier is a ridiculous amount of time. If the barrier has chance to close after the person in front you are too slow.

And the people who stop to put their ticket away immediately after passing the barrier deserve to be trampled, they are almost as bad as those who block the ends of escalators to adjust the handle on their suitcases.

paddington · 14 May 2019

If the UK used turnstiles (as in Hong Kong for example) tailgating would be a lot more difficult and you also wouldn't have the problem in a recent thread where someone mistakenly tailgated thinking they had touched their card to the reader. There would still be wide gates (as in HK) for large luggage/buggies etc. and also for rejected tickets.

Wombat · 15 May 2019

asharpe said:
5 seconds to use a barrier is a ridiculous amount of time. If the barrier has chance to close after the person in front you are too slow.

And the people who stop to put their ticket away immediately after passing the barrier deserve to be trampled, they are almost as bad as those who block the ends of escalators to adjust the handle on their suitcases.

I think that's fair. One of the rules that I intend to impose after seizing power is that anyone stopping at the end of an escalator will be ceremonially disembowelled by an official employed for that purpose. Elsewhere, anyone taking more than one minute at a cash machine will be eaten by lions (exceptions made for the disabled and elderly) and any man wearing a shirt which has a collar different in colour to the rest of the shirt will be set on fire.

I admit that last one is more of a personal preference, but really, this is simple stuff and a firm hand is required.

najaB · 15 May 2019

WombatDeath said:
...any man wearing a shirt which has a collar different in colour to the rest of the shirt will be set on fire.

Is there an exception for a patterned shirt with a plain collar?

talltim · 15 May 2019

najaB said:
Is there an exception for a patterned shirt with a plain collar?

Only if you apply for an exemption beforehand and carry the certification with you for inspection when passing through a ticket barrier or off an escalator. You must however move away before replacing the certification back in its storage.

talltim · 15 May 2019

some bloke said:
Byelaw 9 (2) says,

"Where the entrance to or exit from any platform or station is via a manned or
an automatic ticket barrier no person shall enter or leave the station, except
with permission from an authorised person, without passing through the
barrier in the correct manner."

What is the correct manner?

pdq · 15 May 2019

talltim said:
What is the correct manner?

This is a gif showing John Cleese in a Monty Python 'Ministry of Silly Walks' sketch

talltim · 15 May 2019

I've been doing it wrong all these years*, I don't have a bowler.

*I haven't really, I commute between unbarriered stations

Mojo · 15 May 2019

paddington said:
If the UK used turnstiles (as in Hong Kong for example) tailgating would be a lot more difficult and you also wouldn't have the problem in a recent thread where someone mistakenly tailgated thinking they had touched their card to the reader. There would still be wide gates (as in HK) for large luggage/buggies etc. and also for rejected tickets.

However these gates are also easier to jump over or climb under, so its probably not worth changing. Given most fare evasion at gatelines probably uses the wide gates it most likely isn't worth it if these would be retained.

Wombat · 15 May 2019

najaB said:
Is there an exception for a patterned shirt with a plain collar?

Certainly not, and I thoroughly object to the question. This is not Italy!

js1000 · 16 May 2019

The OP shouldn't have done it but presenting a valid ticket after tailgating makes implementing the byelaw equally pointless. You're even I suppose.

WombatDeath said:
I think that's fair. One of the rules that I intend to impose after seizing power is that anyone stopping at the end of an escalator will be ceremonially disembowelled by an official employed for that purpose.

Don't get me started with muppets with the wheelie luggage cases who stop at the bottom/top of escalators/travelators to simply retract or extend their handle and create a crush behind them. The problem is that most of them don't really what a menace they are. Manchester Airport have the right idea to be fair that Network Rail need to start implementing at their stations.

BluePenguin · 16 May 2019

In fairness, I have run through an open disabled gate once to make a train that I HAD to get with a valid return in my bag. It is not right although we have all been there. Not everyone is looking to evade their fare although the majority probably are else they would have no reason to not use the barriers, so I can understand the member of staff's point of view.

Tailgating with a ticket

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