It works well enough most of the time. I tend to save going in for hard antisocial behaviour. We have a well known local druggie and ne'er do well in his 40s on our patch. He has a dodgy bank card that doesn't work and plays for time till getting off time. I just walk up and say 'afternoon Stephen, how's it going?' and the bank card goes straight away and a bank note appears from his sock *shrug*
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It works well enough most of the time. I tend to save going in for hard antisocial behaviour. We have a well known local druggie and ne'er do well in his 40s on our patch. He has a dodgy bank card that doesn't work and plays for time till getting off time. I just walk up and say 'afternoon Stephen, how's it going?' and the bank card goes straight away and a bank note appears from his sock *shrug*
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RailUK Forums
+1 me too
Out of his sock , I would give it back
I'm not fussy - rolls of notes removed from bras are worse!
Or the woman who keeps her purse in the freezer because she thought burglars wouldn't go looking in there. Some logic in that, but hell those pound coins was cold when you put it in your pocket.
Sometimes it’s the fact that Revenue staff (I’m not Revenue) will go straight in with the “that’s a £20 penalty fare mate” line, where in reality they should be taking details and making an informed decision on the action to to. The minute somebody says that line, it gets peoples’ backs up too. I find they’re generally more receptive to having their details taken and making no mention of a penalty fare (because they’re short-sighted one can only assume, and that paying £20 now, seems a lot worse on the spot than giving details as they don’t realise it could cost a lot more in a few months?).
I watched one of those ‘Dom on the spot’ things a while ago and was surprised to see what was then London Midland staff happily dishing out PFs for scroats with no money or ticket....not what the scheme is intended for. Still, it seemed that’s what their management wanted?
The ticket inspection staff between the platforms and concourse at stations like Leeds, Manchester Piccadilly etc. are there to simply act as a deterrent and to make passengers purchase a ticket rather than doing so on the train and looking to potentially avoid paying a fare at the destination. They're job isn't to start arguments or confrontations but as others have said they'll also be briefed to keep a note on passengers who have seemingly ignored and walked past without showing a ticket OR giving an adequate explanation in case there are multiple future instances of this.
I know people on here like to say "the law says railway staff have the power to detain a suspected fare evader until he can be conveniently brought before some justice or otherwise discharged by due course of law" etc etc. But this is complete and utter nonsense in 2019. A legally reasonable and reputable employer would never permit employees to lay any hands on a member of public for fear of retribution which could lead to legal action - against the company by the employer or the passenger. Only the police have such powers to do this without a real fear of legal repercussions. That's the reality.
NoOnesFool
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Wrong. Revenue Protection Officers have the power to detain people they believe to be fare evading.
Randomer
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I'm sorry but I'm going to have to disagree with you, the law is very clear that in the case of a person doing the three fails (refuse to present a ticket, refuse to buy a ticket and refuse name and address) that the person can be detained using reasonable force to do so. Likewise the railway bylaws give a power to remove somebody from railway property using reasonable force if they are acting in a disorderly manner.
Yes some companies don't support staff if they do use force or indeed it is a disciplinary offence to go against company policy but that doesn't make the underlying law any less valid.
Some companies take a middle ground of allowing staff to detain (i.e. stating verbally you are not free to go without giving name and address is detaining them) but without allowing them by policy to use force.
Other companies employ staff who are designated under the railway safety accreditation scheme who are expected to use reasonable force if necessary as part of there job. If BTP realistically didn't want people using the railway acts or bylaws they wouldn't run a scheme granting further designated powers above those already available. Incidentally Carlisle security (which is the company involved in the opening post) is a designated company but only gets accreditation for there Rail Enforcement Officers rather than all of the staff involved in ticketing matters.
Northern would sack you for defending yourself. Full of managers desperate to look whiter than white. This is a company full of managers who preach the policy of no mobility scooters allowed on board, yet go around apologising and handing out freebies to anyone who is refused and complains.
Northern managers speak with forked tongues.
The Railway Safety Accreditation Scheme (RSAS) only permits 5 or 6 police powers in addition to standard railway staff powers under byelaws and the Regulation of Railways Act etc. I’m accredited under RSAS and quite frequently detain under s.5 RRA. However, if it went wrong there’s no doubt in my mind, that the company would wash their hands of me. The difference here is, I’m dressed, to all intents and purposes, like a police officer, and members of the public have certain perceptions. I also have to think what it looks like to the travelling public if it’s deemed people just take the Micky and get away without supplying their details etc. What’s the point of me being there if all I’m going to do is let people get away with things?
Much to what is believed within the company I work for, we don’t have a no touch policy. We have a reducing violence at work policy. I strongly believe (and it’ll never happen) that we (RSAS staff) need a separate policy written down. We are train in escort techniques and restraint, after all.
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NoOnesFool
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Curious question, do you find that you get less passengers being rude and un-cooperative since you began to wear your RSAS modified version of the uniform? I can imagine it being quite a good visual deterrent for fare evasion.
We’ve always had the same uniform as it’s a unique grade within the company, but yes, I find the uniform is a visual deterrent and definitely have fewer people being uncooperative than staff with the standard uniform do.
i assume this type off language is a moment off indisgresion or frustration as by its use you are bringing your level off argument to the same or perhaps lower than the level they are at
not buying a ticket or how they react does not dictate there level off intelligence there level or understanding or indeed there intent but your choice off words seems to suggest your thought process is rather clouded
now i dont ever think stealing is correct but i also think being fairly derogatory in a way not connected to the actual situation doesn't help things
if you are up to anything dodgy, you will do anything to not flag yourself up to plod. So being caught without a £2 ticket when there is a uniformed officer there will lead to you being arrested, and then searched. So any drugs or offensive weapons or other stuff will be noted.
But its amazing how many people think driving an illegal car is a good idea when committing a crime. Which is why good old fashioned policing works.
I believe that the more intelligent criminals do know how to keep off police radar, and, therefore, get away with it.
Whilst not buying a ticket will never get one arrested (because there’s no need to arrest for this offence), you are correct that most people who are committing other offences usually don’t want to draw attention to themselves. A few do, but by and large (as an example) those running drugs from London to the South Coast, tend to have valid tickets when challenged. You’ll get some more ‘greedy’ types who will chance their arm with a child ticket and then get caught up in a world of lies, eventually being arrested when their details are sketchy, then later on in the police station they’re found to have secreted some class A drugs. They’re the less intelligent ones.
The vast majority of laws in the UK are not "very clear" as they are tested in court. Also, I'm afraid what the law states does not mean it get applied in practice. Of course you could make a reasonable case in law under RORA 1889 to physically detain a passenger. But you are completely discounting the fact that no sensible employer would ever permit staff to use physical force to detain a passenger suspected of fare evasion and they would be sacked - at the very least disciplined heavily. The repercussions for the train company as their employer, from both a financial and PR perspective, are potentially grave (in comparison to the suspected act of fare evasion) if either the employee or passenger suffers an injury from physical confrontation and they are consequently sued.
What training, if any, do any of these staff have regarding what exactly "reasonable force" amounts to? If, as I suspect, the answer is none you can't blame any staff who don't want to start using any force at all.
J-Rod
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HA!!!!
Randomer
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I don't blame them in the slightest for not wanting to use force, especially when support from the employer and the public at large is unlikely.
However, my original point was that the legal backing in terms of criminal law is there so people saying quotes along the lines of "they don't have any power to detain you" earlier in the thread is bad advice at best. In terms of employees or the company being liable in terms of civil cases if injury occurs this is a different matter.
I also agree that most companies are never going to allow staff to use force not in self defence no matter what the legal position is.
Best 1 was a certain ex guard for central who ended up working on the platform at notts. I was in the train from Newark to Nottingham when a gang of kids got on at carlton they was warned by the conductor not to ride there bmx on the platform at notts they didnt take any notice and rode down the platform no btp about as usual this now member of platform staffs dispatch bat accidentally came into contact with 1 one of the little chavs who thought it would be funny to ride straight at him I was stood talking to the member of platform staff at the time and told him if he needed a witness against the little gits I would be more than happy. Most east Midlands trains staff will know I'm on about.
While l sort of get your point, albeit l think it over-egged, l do find a lecture on communication from someone who appears unable to construct proper sentences complete with capital letters and full stops a tad ironic.
CanalWalker
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Police advice civilians not to get involved. The reason we have so much crime is because there is a negligible police presence
CanalWalker
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I am probably unusual but I wouldn't mind paying a little more to cover the cost of fare dodgers if it meant that I wasn't made to feel like a criminal the instant I step onto railway property.
That is generally how it works. Law abiding people, which I assume you are, get made to feel like criminals whilst those who have no intention of paying get away with it time after time. The 'lady' mentioned by the op being a classic example.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Why would I want to get a black eye, or worse, to defend the revenue of a private company that treats me with contempt on a daily basis? It's not like Northern will charge me less if fare evasion ended tomorrow.
Unless staff or passengers are getting beaten, it isn't my problem.
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