Questions about the "Northern Only Day Ranger" one day rover ticket.

I just found out about the Northern Only Day Ranger for £10.00 so i went to my local station (well Horsham as Warnham is fully unstaffed) to pick one up for tomorrow.

Please look at the attached photo for clarity on the exact ticket that i am referring to.

I just had a few questions about this ticket:

• 1. Are there any time restrictions for this ticket?

• 2. Can it be used to and from Glasgow Central on the through train to and from Newcastle which is a joint service between Northern Rail and Abellio Scotrail i believe?

3. If my trains are delayed then how does Depay Repay work for this ticket and what percentage do you get back?

4. Can it be used on the Northern Rail services that use First Trans Pennine Express 185 stock and Grand Central 180 stock?

It is excellent value considering i can get from Nottingham to Carlisle or Crewe to Chathill for just £10.00 total.

Many thanks in advance for your answers and help.

trainusers said:

1. Are there any time restrictions for this ticket?

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No, you may use any Northern service on the day of validity.

trainusers said:

2. Can it be used to and from Glasgow Central on the through train to and from Newcastle which is a joint service between Northern Rail and Abellio Scotrail i believe?

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If travelling towards Glasgow Central, yes as the timetable data shows it as a Northern service. On the way back it is shown as a ScotRail service so I would expect that you would be required to buy a ticket for this.

trainusers said:

3. If my trains are delayed then how does Depay Repay work for this ticket and what percentage do you get back?

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Northern's Passenger Charter doesn't explicitly address Rangers or Rovers, but the general rule of thumb tends to be that it is treated as an ordinary return ticket for the purpose of the percentages used.

trainusers said:

4. Can it be used on the Northern Rail services that use First Trans Pennine Express 185 stock and Grand Central 180 stock?

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If they are timetabled as Northern services, it doesn't matter what rolling stock or branding is used - it's valid.

trainusers said:

It is excellent value considering i can get from Nottingham to Carlisle or Crewe to Chathill for just £10.00 total.

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Agreed!

ForTheLoveOf said:

If travelling towards Glasgow Central, yes as the timetable data shows it as a Northern service. On the way back it is shown as a ScotRail service so I would expect that you would be required to buy a ticket for this.

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I suppose it depends which data you are looking at. Some timetable data clearly states that it is both a Northern and ScotRail service and that it works from Carlisle onwards under ScotRail.

I'm not sure it's clear cut to say you can use the ticket to Glasgow.

ForTheLoveOf said:

No, you may use any Northern service on the day of validity.

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Following the link -
"Time restrictions: only valid on trains timed to depart after 0845 Mondays to Fridays. Valid at any time weekends and Bank Holidays."

ForTheLoveOf said:

If travelling towards Glasgow Central, yes as the timetable data shows it as a Northern service.

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Northern's webpages don't show this service on their timetables - if there is a Scotrail branded train, and a Scotrail guard, I wouldn't expect it to be entirely straightforward.

or Crewe to Chathill for just £10.00 total.

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Only on a Saturday!

You shouldn't have been able to buy the ticket without the newspaper vouchers and outside the Northern area, so I'm confused. You may have got lucky.

@ForTheLoveOf is not correct; the ticket is not valid north of Carlisle as the through trains are operated by Scotrail north of Carlisle. RTT correctly shows the operator change. Likewise they ARE valid on the through trains east of Carlisle as they are Northern-operated trains from Carlisle, even if some timetable data incorrectly states it as Scotrail throughout.

@ForTheLoveOf is also incorrect with the restrictions; weekday tickets cannot be used before 0845.

These tickets are only valid on Northern services, so beware of gaps in the network (e.g. Lancaster to Carlisle on the WCML, York to Darlington).

tony_mac said:

"Time restrictions: only valid on trains timed to depart after 0845 Mondays to Fridays. Valid at any time weekends and Bank Holidays."

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Which is directly contradicted by the statement: "Hop on and off all day long." further up the page!

tony_mac said:

Northern's webpages don't show this service on their timetables - if there is a Scotrail branded train, and a Scotrail guard, I wouldn't expect it to be entirely straightforward.

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Simply show an itinerary that shows it as the Northern service it is (e.g. FastJP).

Branding and operations are entirely irrelevant - there are 'legitimate' Northern services operated by TransPennine Express branded 185s with TPE guards, there are East Midlands Trains services where the same happens with Northern units and guards... What matters is what the timetable data says.

ForTheLoveOf said:

Simply show an itinerary that shows it as the Northern service it is (e.g. FastJP).

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It is helpful to people if you don't give bad advice.

The through trains are Scotrail north of Carlisle and Northern east of Carlisle, regardless of whether it is a Scotrail or Northern unit.

The timetable data, when displayed correctly, shows this. The operator changes mid-route. Some unofficial websites showing incomplete data doesn't alter this.

Regarding Carlisle to Glasgow I asked the question last time.
Well it was worth a try!

Arctic Troll said:

The through trains are Scotrail north of Carlisle and Northern east of Carlisle, regardless of whether it is a Scotrail or Northern unit.

The timetable data, when displayed correctly, shows this. The operator changes mid-route.

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The bit in bold is not correct. The timetable data does indeed show a change at Carlisle, but it shows the operator continuing after the change as the same operator as before the change. What actually changes is the Train Service Code, which is a long number (e.g. 21793000) used in TOC contracts with Network Rail etc., but not normally publicly visible.

Sites such as Real Time Trains and BR Times which show the change of the operator, are looking at the change of Train Service Code and inferring the change of operator from that. But the timetable data always shows the operator as being the same before and after the change, so the sites that show the operator changing are actually overriding what is in the data. So in my opinion there's much more of a grey area there than simply "displaying the timetable data correctly".

Arctic Troll said:

It is helpful to people if you don't give bad advice.

The through trains are Scotrail north of Carlisle and Northern east of Carlisle, regardless of whether it is a Scotrail or Northern unit.

The timetable data, when displayed correctly, shows this. The operator changes mid-route. Some unofficial websites showing incomplete data doesn't alter this.

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This is not the case, but feel free to have your own views on the matter.

ForTheLoveOf said:

This is not the case, but feel free to have your own views on the matter.

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Do you at least agree that it's a grey area?

Arctic Troll said:

lThe operator changes mid-route. Some unofficial websites showing incomplete data doesn't alter this.

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Northern's official website shows the 0630 to Glasgow as 'Northern' throughout.

Indigo2 said:

Do you at least agree that it's a grey area?

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If one has a ticket that is valid on all Northern trains, and one is offered an itinerary to travel somewhere on a Northern train, I don't see what the grey zone is. It's no different to any other time where the branding and staffing of a service varies from its true operator (c.f. Grand Central 180s for Northern, TPE 185s on Northern, Northern 170s on TPE, Virgin Pendolinos vice XC Voyagers etc.!).

The confusion may perhaps be due to the fact that for crewing purposes, the service is split in two, but there are numerous other services which are operationally split apart and yet still considered one and the same service to customers.

If Northern or Scotrail want the two halves to be two separate services then they would need to change the timetable data, which defines the true operator of the service (in the same way it defines the availability of first class etc.).

It goes without saying that if you wanted to take a service from Carlisle to Newcastle that is timetabled as a Scotrail service, you could not use a Northern only ranger unless the guard had permitted you to do so.

yorkie said:

Northern's official website shows the 0630 to Glasgow as 'Northern' throughout.

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Good luck trying to argue that with the guard after Carlisle though, or at the gateline staff at Glasgow Central.

Kite159 said:

Good luck trying to argue that with the guard after Carlisle though, or at the gateline staff at Glasgow Central.

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I really don't see what they can credibly say - you have an itinerary which shows it is a Northern service. If they are not satisfied with that, that is a problem which lies squarely within the control and fault of the rail industry, so it would be utterly ludicrous to attempt to act in breach of contract.

Of course, ludicrousness or lack of credibility does not stop it from happening then and there, but it makes it a lot easier to pursue after the fact if there are problems.

I think that the 'Newspaper Offer' section on the Northern website covers most points.
In particular the routes included.
https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/jpimedia

.... You can travel anywhere on the Northern network using Northern services. Hop on and off all day long. Depending on your home station, you can visit Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester, Southport, Sheffield, York and more with Northern.
....

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The Northern Network linked map shows nothing north of Carlisle on the west side.

ForTheLoveOf said:

I really don't see what they can credibly say - you have an itinerary which shows it is a Northern service. If they are not satisfied with that, that is a problem which lies squarely within the control and fault of the rail industry, so it would be utterly ludicrous to attempt to act in breach of contract.

Of course, ludicrousness or lack of credibility does not stop it from happening then and there, but it makes it a lot easier to pursue after the fact if there are problems.

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"I'm sorry sir, that ticket isn't valid on this service at it's Scotrail after Carlisle"

"Well I have an itinerary from a 3rd party website (with nothing purchased to confirm the itinerary) which tells me it's northern all the way to Glasgow"

"You can either pay for a new ticket to Glasgow or get off the train at Gretna Green"

And any judge in the land will laugh if you try and bring a case against Scotrail based on evidence from a 3rd party website.

ForTheLoveOf said:

If travelling towards Glasgow Central, yes as the timetable data shows it as a Northern service.

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Indeed. However. As @trainusers has come to us to ask for further information, we can provide the necessary further information. It's in fact not a Northern service. This is clear and unambiguous. The train will be operated under ScotRail's licence to carry passengers by rail, and on their insurance. It's listed in their timetable. It's unambiguously their service. Some, but only some data are misleading on the matter. But there's loads of evidence to the contrary, such that a conclusion is relatively clear.

However, I do agree very much that the misleading data would mean that someone ignorant of this fact (so not you, and not trainusers, now) would have a strong case to interpret their contract as covering travel on that service. It's legitimate to be ignorant about sideshows such as a railway forum, and just trust the terms of the contract. It's not legitimate to go to a forum deliberately to ask for clarification, understand the real meaning behind an examination of the facts, and then selectively ignore inconvenient facts and lie about ever having known them later on if you need to defend your case.

Be careful what you wish for.

It is irresponsible to advise a new forum member who is likely to be less fluent in ticketing matters by virtual of asking some fairly basic questions a course of action which has a high likelihood of landing in a dispute.

I can only caution against the assumption one is undoubtedly valid north of Carlisle. One can ask, and I would expect a sensible course of action by the guard to allow travel to Glasgow when shown such an itinerary, but assuming that the ticket is valid is likely to end in a dispute, which only the OP can decide whether he will have the time to fight. Also only the OP can decide whether the likelihood of entering into such a dispute is a worthwhile risk for potentially complicating what is a simple day out. Once you reach Glasgow you will also need to purchase a single ticket back, which unless it is an Advance fare is going to offer little discount over a return fare.

To OP, if you are happy to take such a risk and consider it worthwhile to potentially enter into such a dispute, I am sure there will be people on here who will be more than willing to assist, however I cannot stress enough there will be no guarantee of any success despite the confidence of some posters.

To elaborate slightly more on this issue, the timetable data can only store one operator ID for each service, which is why only the operator at the start of a journey is shown. This is a quirk of the system. For all intents and purposes, the Newcastle - Glasgow service is a jointly operated service, by Northern east of Carlisle and by ScotRail west of Carlisle. This is also the reason why the journey in the opposite direction is seemingly operated by ScotRail throughout when in actual fact it is not. The section west of Carlisle has never been operated by Northern in reality, nor the section east of Carlisle by ScotRail.

Unfortunately there is a lot of incorrect and/or misleading information (on both 'sides' of this debate) in this thread.

Kite159 said:

And any judge in the land will laugh if you try and bring a case against Scotrail based on evidence from a 3rd party website.

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I don't understand this reference to a "3rd party website"; it doesn't seem relevant to me, and in any case the Scotrail site also says it's operated by Northern, so there is no need to reference a third party.

Note: I am not arguing for this course of action but just responding to the above incorrect point.

I think this is a very good point:

Starmill said:

...I do agree very much that the misleading data would mean that someone ignorant of this fact (so not you, and not trainusers, now) would have a strong case to interpret their contract as covering travel on that service. It's legitimate to be ignorant about sideshows such as a railway forum, and just trust the terms of the contract. It's not legitimate to go to a forum deliberately to ask for clarification, understand the real meaning behind an examination of the facts, and then selectively ignore inconvenient facts and lie about ever having known them later on if you need to defend your case...

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The only train in the current timetable that runs through from Newcastle to Glasgow via Dumfries appears to be the 0630 Mondays - Fridays, which is not valid on this ticket anyway, and that train ceases to operate on 17th May 2019 anyway!