LNR new WCML timetable, May 2019 (in open data feeds)

sufian123 · 14 May 2019

bionic said:
The train crew diagrams need to be scrutinised by the local union reps to check they are legal (eg: all conform to T&Cs, walking times etc) as well as looking at things like fatigue risk and ways to tweak or balance the jobs out. The crew diagrams can't be issued until the union has scrutinised them and signed them off. While the diagrams relate to the working of the published timetable, the timetable is always published long before local reps get a chance to look at the diagrams. This is normal and happens all over the country at any change to crew diagrams, regardless of whether the timetable is changing.

Thanks I didn’t know

RailUK Forums

sd0733 · 14 May 2019

87015 said:
Are the crew diagrams agreed yet?

Weve had ours at Crewe the other day and all linked, agreed and signed off, around 95% of our jobs have changed and 40% more jobs so if ours are done I presume others are.

RealTrains07 · 14 May 2019

E6007 said:
Interesting service on the Saturday (and I suspect the Monday) from Euston. For most of the day there are three trains each hour from Euston to

Crewe, Crewe and Crewe!

Each though using different routes - direct via Trent valley; via Northampton, Birmingham, Stafford and direct; via Northampton, Birmingham and Stoke on Trent. The latter has a portion to Rugeley Trent Valley.

With some VT services terminating at Crewe as well, could be an interesting day for uninformed passengers.

Wait and see shall we :lol:

From looking at the timetable for the 3 crewe trains, the 3rd is a waste really. It should go via stoke since its a birmingham one but no it has to go on the fast line from stafford. Wouldn’t have hurt to give 2 crewe trains an hour via stoke on this one day?

Ianno87 · 14 May 2019

RealTrains07 said:
Wait and see shall we

From looking at the timetable for the 3 crewe trains, the 3rd is a waste really. It should go via stoke since its a birmingham one but no it has to go on the fast line from stafford. Wouldn’t have hurt to give 2 crewe trains an hour via stoke on this one day?

On the Barthomley-North Staffs single line it probably would.

pt_mad · 15 May 2019

RealTrains07 said:
Wait and see shall we

From looking at the timetable for the 3 crewe trains, the 3rd is a waste really. It should go via stoke since its a birmingham one but no it has to go on the fast line from stafford. Wouldn’t have hurt to give 2 crewe trains an hour via stoke on this one day?

Is it not the Liverpool that you're looking at?

E6007 · 15 May 2019

pt_mad said:
Is it not the Liverpool that you're looking at?

It is to Liverpool normally but the line is closed north of Crewe from around mid day on Saturday.

RealTrains07 · 15 May 2019

E6007 said:
It is to Liverpool normally but the line is closed north of Crewe from around mid day on Saturday.

The timetable for that day i presume will be on real train times since national rail app still shows trains going crewe to liverpool on that day

sufian123 · 15 May 2019

RealTrains07 said:
The timetable for that day i presume will be on real train times since national rail app still shows trains going crewe to liverpool on that day

Yes virgin are via Chat Moss I think

I13 · 15 May 2019

6026KingJohn said:
Ex Euston: xx15 Crewe/Rugeley split at New Street, xx24 Rugeley (so presumably 4 car), xx49 Liverpool
Ex New Street: xx14 from Rugeley (presume 4 car), xx33 from Liverpool, and Crewe via Stoke, xx54 from Liverpool

Bletchleyite said:
Must be on a weekend as there are almost no 4s south of Northampton.

Sorry to drag this thread back a bit, but what do you mean by 'almost', and are you sure?

I'm finding it difficult to square that with the weekday pattern, and what other posters have said about the splits only being at New Street.

The xx24 Euston - Rugeley then does Rugeley - International, then International - Liverpool, then back to Birmingham, where it joins the Crewe service at New Street. So unless it loses 4 carriages somewhere along the way, I don't see how the xx24 can be 8 carriages.

Likewise, the xx14 New Street - Euston (from Rugeley) is formed from the half of the xx15 Euston - Crewe/Rugeley that goes to Rugeley, so unless it gets 4 carriages somewhere, I don't see how that can be 8 carriages either.

The xx49 Euston - Liverpool seems to form what becomes the xx54 Birmingham - Euston (from Liverpool), with no splits/joins - so however many carriages it is going to Liverpool it also is back to London, which could be 8.

Silverlinky said:
So, a few snippets from a release to staff today.....
Most Trent Valley services are strengthened to 8 coaches....the 1546 Euston to Crewe isn't however, as the 1549 to Liverpool via Birmingham gets 8 instead.

However, doesn't the information here potentially imply that the xx49 getting 8 cars is a one-off at the expense of the xx46 Trent Valley?

Bletchleyite · 16 May 2019

I13 said:
Sorry to drag this thread back a bit, but what do you mean by 'almost', and are you sure?

You can see all the formations here:
https://www.londonnorthwesternrailw...2eipSAkmKNOuWmquLiC58xmt5FbXeou4/ln04_web.pdf

I'm finding it difficult to square that with the weekday pattern, and what other posters have said about the splits only being at New Street.

I believe the discussion I was contributing to refers to Sundays. On Sundays there are only 4 4-car formations out of Euston all day, all in the evening when things will be very quiet. Saturday also has 4 4-car formations plus one 12. Southbound Sundays again only 4 4-car formations but also 2 12s (I wonder where they go?) - Saturday 9 4-car formations southbound. Mostly 8.

The xx24 Euston - Rugeley then does Rugeley - International, then International - Liverpool, then back to Birmingham, where it joins the Crewe service at New Street. So unless it loses 4 carriages somewhere along the way, I don't see how the xx24 can be 8 carriages.

Likewise, the xx14 New Street - Euston (from Rugeley) is formed from the half of the xx15 Euston - Crewe/Rugeley that goes to Rugeley, so unless it gets 4 carriages somewhere, I don't see how that can be 8 carriages either.

The xx49 Euston - Liverpool seems to form what becomes the xx54 Birmingham - Euston (from Liverpool), with no splits/joins - so however many carriages it is going to Liverpool it also is back to London, which could be 8.

However, doesn't the information here potentially imply that the xx49 getting 8 cars is a one-off at the expense of the xx46 Trent Valley?

For weekdays I believe this is all correct, but if you look at the formations at the link above there is a lot of peak lengthening so I suspect for those there will be Northampton splits/joins.

The 1849/1846 seems to be different Fridays and other weekdays. It's always 8 car but it's an 1849 via Northampton on a Friday and an 1846 direct on other weekdays. Which is a bit odd. I wonder what the extra demand involving Northampton on a Friday is - uni students?

Pumbaa · 16 May 2019

1846 Fridays only Virgin relief to Manchester already exists. Presumably LNR couldn’t get what would be the 1849 on Fridays through via Weedon so it has to run via Northampton.

Idon'tKnow · 16 May 2019

They can manage almost no 4 carriage trains south of Northampton, yet roughly half of our weekday Trent Valley services will be still be 4, its disappointing.

Jamesrob637 · 16 May 2019

Pumbaa said:
1846 Fridays only Virgin relief to Manchester already exists. Presumably LNR couldn’t get what would be the 1849 on Fridays through via Weedon so it has to run via Northampton.

18:46 to Preston you mean? There's 18:57 relief to Manchester but that's Thursdays and Fridays AFAIK

Bletchleyite · 16 May 2019

Idon'tKnow said:
They can manage almost no 4 carriage trains south of Northampton, yet roughly half of our weekday Trent Valley services will be still be 4, its disappointing.

Until the new stock arrives, this is the correct decision - their core market is London commuters, not heavily discounted off peak travel from the Trent Valley to London (Chiltern are quite bad at getting this decision the wrong way round in contrast). If they short-formed peak London commuter services in order to extend the Trent Valley services they would rightly get very short shrift.

I suspect that when the 350/4s arrive they'll all go up to 8 (and a few more peak London services to 12).

FWIW the Trent Valleys for LM were pseudo-Open Access services - all they were required to do was hourly Crewe-Northampton, 2 hourly on Sundays. I don't know how the WMT franchise agreement sees it, though.

RealTrains07 · 16 May 2019

Where can you find the train formations for each station for the new timetable?

Bletchleyite · 16 May 2019

RealTrains07 said:
Where can you find the train formations for each station for the new timetable?

Nowhere for the entire network, but the Euston-Northampton timetable contains them (why the others don't I have no idea) and you can pretty much work them all out from there given that all the diagrams get to London at some point.

RealTrains07 · 16 May 2019

From looking at the diagrams, interestingly some crewe via birmingham have 12 coach formations? how do they split twice??

Also why in the weekday evenings do LNR still have trains going london-birmingham, surely that defeats the purpose of the timetable??

sufian123 · 16 May 2019

RealTrains07 said:
From looking at the diagrams, interestingly some crewe via birmingham have 12 coach formations? how do they split twice??

Also why in the weekday evenings do LNR still have trains going london-birmingham, surely that defeats the purpose of the timetable??

Northampton for 12 cars. Only 8 vars will. Continue beyond. Or worse 4 cars

Jamesrob637 · 16 May 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Nowhere for the entire network, but the Euston-Northampton timetable contains them (why the others don't I have no idea) and you can pretty much work them all out from there given that all the diagrams get to London at some point.

Better than Northern Fail unless I've missed something in this new timetable

Bletchleyite · 16 May 2019

RealTrains07 said:
From looking at the diagrams, interestingly some crewe via birmingham have 12 coach formations? how do they split twice??

Also why in the weekday evenings do LNR still have trains going london-birmingham, surely that defeats the purpose of the timetable??

The peak has to be rejigged a bit to serve the core market (London commuters) with the stock available. I think once the growth build of new stock is here we will see more standardisation of the timetable.

Pumbaa · 16 May 2019

Jamesrob637 said:
18:46 to Preston you mean? There's 18:57 relief to Manchester but that's Thursdays and Fridays AFAIK

Yes that one. But the point still stands.

pt_mad · 16 May 2019

Pumbaa said:
1846 Fridays only Virgin relief to Manchester already exists. Presumably LNR couldn’t get what would be the 1849 on Fridays through via Weedon so it has to run via Northampton.

Voyager ain't it, that one? (The Preston).

sufian123 · 16 May 2019

pt_mad said:
Voyager ain't it, that one? (The Preston).

No. It’s a class 390. For a couple of weeks it’s been a voyager. It will back beibg a pendo from next Friday

sufian123 · 16 May 2019

pt_mad said:
Voyager ain't it, that one? (The Preston).

Apologies it’s booked to be a voyager from now on. Was a pendo. Anyways not the right place to discuss.

RealTrains07 · 16 May 2019

Who is ready for the timetable change? been hearing it non stop every time LNR train is announced

What issue do you think would cause the most problems to the timetable when it starts? Not sure if i can think of a definitive one except the usual :?:

Silverlinky · 17 May 2019

RealTrains07 said:
Who is ready for the timetable change? been hearing it non stop every time LNR train is announced

What issue do you think would cause the most problems to the timetable when it starts? Not sure if i can think of a definitive one except the usual

Maybe the fact that conductors didn't agree their new roster or diagrams until late means that they will work to old roster times for the first week of the new timetable. That will create a bit of a headache......this is the biggest change for years with virtually every diagram changed from what it was before. So old times are not going to fit new times very well!

Southern Dvr · 18 May 2019

That is unlikely a problem. If there’s a fail to agree on rosters and diagrams they get imposed whilst both parties try to find a resolution. It’s highly unlikely they’d work to an old out of date roster.

si404 · 18 May 2019

The diagrams are rather complex, which can't help matters. I think, however, the need to look up times for a lot of passengers - most stations seem to have been changed.

RealTrains07 · 18 May 2019

End of an era, last ever trent valley train on the stoke loop has been and gone.

si404 said:
The diagrams are rather complex, which can't help matters. I think, however, the need to look up times for a lot of passengers - most stations seem to have been changed.

I know what u mean and from looking at the timetable at stations like stafford trains seem to be coming and going from all over the place?!? Still got 1 hourly new street service which to me seems pointless

Bletchleyite · 18 May 2019

si404 said:
The diagrams are rather complex, which can't help matters.

That is my biggest fear, and in connection with that I fear that the long-running policy of "run everything into/out of Euston as booked even if it's late", which has worked well for years, will have to be dropped in favour of running things fast to catch up and cancelling south of Northampton, which will seriously harm the interests of the core market in favour of chasing cheap fares to Brum, Liverpool and Crewe.

In other words, it's all going a bit Chiltern, who have been neglecting Aylesbury and south-of-Bicester commuters for years in their pursuit of becoming an IC operation to Brum and stealing tourist revenue from GWR.

LNR new WCML timetable, May 2019 (in open data feeds)

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