TfL: Bus driver breaches TfL policy over disability priority

Antman · 8 May 2019

Here we go again, kangaroo court in sitting!

Page 70 of the big red book published by TfL states quite clearly that if a wheelchair cannot be accommodated and other passengers are not willing to move the wheelchair user will have to wait for the next bus.

Not perfect I know but few things in life are.

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Astradyne · 8 May 2019

Trouble is the individual has no reponsibility under 'DDA' law ... the company does ... so the passenger is not breaking any law ... the company is by not having the space vacated.

If a passenger refuses to leave ... you can imagine the bad press if a driver removes the buggy from the bus ... it cant then drive off with the parent on the bus ... do the then forcibly bundle the parent of the bus ... leaving yourself open to assault charges?

If you stop the bus ... you inconvenience many passengers ... some of who you may lose for good as they seek alternative arrangements ... which inturn could lead the the route becoming unprofitable and withdrawn!

randyrippley · 8 May 2019

how far behind was the next bus?
and would the driver have known the status of that bus?

WelshBluebird · 9 May 2019

Whenever I've been on a bus where the driver has had an issue with one of the passengers already on the bus (regardless of the issue - once it was because a drunk idiot wouldn't stop pressing the stop bell at every stop) the driver has just pulled up where safe and refused to move the bus until the passenger in question gets off the bus. Is that not a thing in London?

Bletchleyite · 9 May 2019

WelshBluebird said:
Whenever I've been on a bus where the driver has had an issue with one of the passengers already on the bus (regardless of the issue - once it was because a drunk idiot wouldn't stop pressing the stop bell at every stop) the driver has just pulled up where safe and refused to move the bus until the passenger in question gets off the bus. Is that not a thing in London?

It very much is, yes. It's what I refer to as the "newspaper method" - pull over, switch the engine off, get out the newspaper, wait for the problem to be resolved. A passenger will normally do this in a far more blunt way than the driver could without getting the sack.

Antman · 9 May 2019

Bletchleyite said:
It very much is, yes. It's what I refer to as the "newspaper method" - pull over, switch the engine off, get out the newspaper, wait for the problem to be resolved. A passenger will normally do this in a far more blunt way than the driver could without getting the sack.

Depends what the problem is, as regarding wheelchair disputes the protocol is explained in the big red book. Basically the controller would be telling the driver to get going.

Nicks · 15 May 2019

I was at a meeting earlier this year where a senior TfL bus executive was present, they told us that the Big Red Book was advisory only to the bus companies, we were also told that it needed updating as well.

Mojo · 15 May 2019

richw said:
Expectation for Corporate responsibility is massively high.

Astradyne said:
Trouble is the individual has no reponsibility under 'DDA' law ... the company does ... so the passenger is not breaking any law ... the company is by not having the space vacated.

FWIW, there is also an argument being made that individual bus drivers are committing a criminal offence for unreasonably denying access to wheelchair users. Individuals like Doug Paulley (who is a member of this forum and has a YouTube channel with a video of him doing this) support this as a way of taking action against drivers who are acting in this manner: https://www.kingqueen.org.uk/west-y...port-bus-drivers-who-refuse-wheelchair-users/

Antman · 15 May 2019

Nicks said:
I was at a meeting earlier this year where a senior TfL bus executive was present, they told us that the Big Red Book was advisory only to the bus companies, we were also told that it needed updating as well.

Sounds like typical TfL waffle quite honestly.

Busaholic · 15 May 2019

Jack15001 said:
Sounds like typical TfL waffle quite honestly.

As I understand it, TfL's 'contract' is with the passenger and vice versa: that TfL choose to sub-contract the running of their bus routes to private companies, who employ all the staff, shouldn't be the passenger's concern, nor is it a buck which TfL can pass just when they choose. To the passenger, it's a TfL bus on a TfL operated-service and it's up to TfL to comply with the law. Of course, TfL 'executives' may try to muddy the waters and, by so doing, they invite the possibility of any complainant joining the private company and their individual employee with TfL in any legal redress.

6Gman · 15 May 2019

goldisgood said:
Surely everyone else has places to be? Whilst it is the law that wheelchair users get priority, and I do believe that if the buggies could have been folded up then the driver should have made sure that they were, but if not then what happens? Should the buggy users be kicked off as another person who needs the space can't get on the bus which is full? Any able-bodied passenger or anyone with a buggy would have to wait for the next bus. Whilst I sympathise with the wheelchair user, I feel as if it is tough luck in some ways.

The wheelchair space is for ... wheelchairs. If not being used for that purpose then it is available for others to use, be they buggy users or standing passengers. But if a wheelchair user then boards then the buggy user (or standing passenger) should vacate the space.

Antman · 16 May 2019

6Gman said:
The wheelchair space is for ... wheelchairs. If not being used for that purpose then it is available for others to use, be they buggy users or standing passengers. But if a wheelchair user then boards then the buggy user (or standing passenger) should vacate the space.

And what if people are unable or unwilling to vacate the space?

3rd rail land · 16 May 2019

Jack15001 said:
And what if people are unable or unwilling to vacate the space?

The driver should pull over or remain at the stop until the situation is resolved. Then explain the bus isn't moving until the situation is resolved.
As has already mentioned in this thread the driver won't be able to forcefully eject the the buggy and its user/child/owner as he'll be in a lot of trouble with this employer and possibly the police as well.

From my experiences not moving off from the stop, which is where all issues I've seen have happened, always works in the end even if there is a short standoff between the driver and the offender. Usually over paying for the journey especially with Boris Routemasters as people think they can get on the middle or back and avoid paying. I've seen quite a few people walk past the oyster readers without attempting to touch in. Has caused me to be delayed in the past but I would support any driver that refuses to move when there is an issue onboard.

Antman · 16 May 2019

And the controller will be on the radio telling the driver to get moving, there is no requirement for anybody already on the bus to move anywhere.

Loads of people don't pay on open boarding buses but that's a different subject and nothing to do with this thread.

3rd rail land · 16 May 2019

Jack15001 said:
And the controller will be on the radio telling the driver to get moving, there is no requirement for anybody already on the bus to move anywhere.

Loads of people don't pay on open boarding buses but that's a different subject and nothing to do with this thread.

I'd be asking my superiors, in writing, for the official company policy on the matter and what form of action I should be taking if the situation were to arise. If the policy contradicts any criminal law then I would raise this as well.

If the policy is to stop until the issue is resolved then I would be telling the controller that this is the official company policy and that I won't be moving even if he orders me to. I would expect a controller to know what the company policy is in situations like this.

Antman · 16 May 2019

3rd rail land said:
I'd be asking my superiors, in writing, for the official company policy on the matter and what form of action I should be taking if the situation were to arise. If the policy contradicts any criminal law then I would raise this as well.

If the policy is to stop until the issue is resolved then I would be telling the controller that this is the official company policy and that I won't be moving even if he orders me to. I would expect a controller to know what the company policy is in situations like this.

It's in the Big Red Book that TfL published.

richw · 16 May 2019

3rd rail land said:
I'd be asking my superiors, in writing, for the official company policy on the matter and what form of action I should be taking if the situation were to arise. If the policy contradicts any criminal law then I would raise this as well.

It’s on the wall in my depot and is fully compliant.

TfL: Bus driver breaches TfL policy over disability priority

Antman

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Astradyne

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