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What does C1 or C3 mean?

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EIKN

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Hi guys, I'm becoming more and more Interested in the rail industry, and the current state of affairs, I've even got seriously into model 00 rail but don't fully understand all that yet .
There are some terminologies I don't understand , but one sticks out .

And apologies if this was answered somewhere else as I genuinely have no idea what I'm searching for .

But on the end of all kinds of trains from MK3 coaches , to the class 158/170 is a 'C3' Code , I thought at first it related to ' coach three of a rake '.
Then I wondered. Given the fact the class 156 is formed from a Mark 3 , and the interior of the class 158 seems to resemble the MK3 interior, the last one I caught belonging to Northern was quick and very comfortable, with a table power points and large windows( I digress on that part ).
So what is the ' C code , I saw a MK1 bearing C1. AND Assumed it was a ' version number '.
 
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hexagon789

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EIKN said:
Hi guys, I'm becoming more and more Interested in the rail industry, and the current state of affairs, I've even got seriously into model 00 rail but don't fully understand all that yet .
There are some terminologies I don't understand , but one sticks out .

And apologies if this was answered somewhere else as I genuinely have no idea what I'm searching for .

But on the end of all kinds of trains from MK3 coaches , to the class 158/170 is a 'C3' Code , I thought at first it related to ' coach three of a rake '.
Then I wondered. Given the fact the class 156 is formed from a Mark 3 , and the interior of the class 158 seems to resemble the MK3 interior, the last one I caught belonging to Northern was quick and very comfortable, with a table power points and large windows( I digress on that part ).
So what is the ' C code , I saw a MK1 bearing C1. AND Assumed it was a ' version number '.
Click to expand...

The C is a clearance code relating to the length of coach.

Mk1 and Mk2 coaches and multiple units such as 150s are C1 being 20m long

Mk3 and Mk4 coaches and multiple units such as 156s are C3 being 23m long.

C1 is based on Mk1 coaches
C3 on Mk3 coaches hence the numbers.
 
delt1c

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Was aware of the meaning, but now wondering was there ever a C2 and what was the Mk1 BG and short fra,e suburban stock classified as ?
 
sprinterguy

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EIKN said:
Given the fact the class 156 is formed from a Mark 3
Click to expand...
As an addendum to the main question, class 156s aren't "formed from" mark 3s, they were a bespoke design produced by Metro Cammell whereas the mark 3s were built by BREL at Derby. There's little design commonality, beyond them both being 23 metre metal tubes carried on bogies.
 
hexagon789

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pdeaves said:
Note though that it is 'based on', not 'same as'. When rolling stock is introduced to a new route it still has to have clearances tested even if another C1 (or C3) vehicle type is cleared already.
Click to expand...

True, I simply meant the restrictions are nominally based on Mk1 and Mk3 coaches respectively.
 
driver9000

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Tilting gauge stock carries the designation C4 which can be seen on mk4 coaches and 390s.
 
driver9000

driver9000

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delt1c said:
Was aware of the meaning, but now wondering was there ever a C2 and what was the Mk1 BG and short fra,e suburban stock classified as ?
Click to expand...

There has never been a C2 designation as far as I know.
 
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EIKN

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Thank you guys for the reply , very informative.
I clearly need not to read Wikipedia when looking at the information I wax trying to find on the development of the class 158 and 170 , both lightyears ahead of the horrific Pacers we have here ( slightly off topic - preying for one or the other as replacement) .
But unless anyone knows a better source of information on the Class 158's ?.
 
30907

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delt1c said:
Was aware of the meaning, but now wondering was there ever a C2 and what was the Mk1 BG and short fra,e suburban stock classified as ?
Click to expand...
Quick photo search confirms that BGs carried C1, as did dmus of both lengths. Only picture I can quickly find of 57' stock (KWVR) has nothing, but SR restrictions didnt vary by coach length!

(On the SR, in case the OP is interested, the restrictions in common use by the 60s were just 0, 1 and 4 (4 being C1); Restriction 0 permitted the Tonbridge to Hastings line, 1 basically Tonbridge to Eridge, all other routes were 4.
 
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hexagon789

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30907 said:
Quick photo search confirms that BGs carried C1, as did dmus of both lengths. Only picture I can quickly find of 57' stock (KWVR) has nothing, but SR restrictions didnt vary by coach length!
Click to expand...

Don't suppose you found anything of Mk1 suburbans? I have an idea they may be C1 marked but possibly something else as well.
 
61653 HTAFC

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It's worth noting that Pacer vehicles are marked as C1 despite being 25% shorter than standard mk1 coaches. Do the 139s carry any designation?
 
30907

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hexagon789 said:
Don't suppose you found anything of Mk1 suburbans? I have an idea they may be C1 marked but possibly something else as well.
Click to expand...
Sorry, the 57ft stock was suburbans, I didn't make it clear.
Other markings apart from the dimensions plate are Kings Cross (Outer) Suburban, but that's a route branding rather than a restriction.
 
hexagon789

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30907 said:
Sorry, the 57ft stock was suburbans, I didn't make it clear.
Other markings apart from the dimensions plate are Kings Cross (Outer) Suburban, but that's a route branding rather than a restriction.
Click to expand...

So Mk1 suburbans are C1 as well then?
 
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etr221

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big all said:
wasnt hastings gauge C"0" ??
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It was Southern (Railway/Region) 'Restriction 0', which (IIRC) meant width no more then 8 feet.

Southern carriage restrictions went up (IIRC) to 7 - there is a list somewhere on the web. Restriction 4 was essentially equivalent to BR C1.

BR originally introduced 'C1' as a loading gauge for carriages c1950, and it was used (AFAIK) for all the original BR Standard carriages (that became Mk I) - where greater restriction was required (e.g. for 57' vehicles only) this was covered by special instructions.

There were gauges defined for (steam) locos (L1 and L2), and wagons (Wn) at the same time. AFAIK only the W series has been been continued - it's now up to about W12.

But changes in suspension design, etc., and consideration of dynamic gauging, have meant that the principles behind such gauges are now effectively obsolete, with pretty well everything now needing specific clearance.
 
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30907 said:
Sorry, the 57ft stock was suburbans, I didn't make it clear.
Other markings apart from the dimensions plate are Kings Cross (Outer) Suburban, but that's a route branding rather than a restriction.
Click to expand...
Surely, the clearance issues for 60ft vehicles and 57ft types of the standard MKI cross section are virtually the same. The difference between 64ft/20m coaches and 23m types is much more marked,* even though most 23m vehicles have narrower cross-sections. The class 80x MUs with their 26m bodies are even slimmer and have inset bogies and tapered ends to minimise the clearance required on small radius curves. Do they have a higher 'C' code?
* Aren't the MKS all the same width? Did GUVs and CCTs have the same cantrail width as 57ft and 64ft passenger vehicles despite their flat sides?
 
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dubscottie

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I am sure I read somewhere that the C2 gauge was for the wider bodied ex-GWR stock. I dont think it was used though. The coaches were just marked "Not to be worked off the Western Region" .

My memory might be going, but I am sure class 120 dmu's were marked C3 also.

There were "Metro Gauge" Mk1 suburban stock but I think they were C0 like the Hastings line stock.
 
hexagon789

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dubscottie said:
I am sure I read somewhere that the C2 gauge was for the wider bodied ex-GWR stock. I dont think it was used though. The coaches were just marked "Not to be worked off the Western Region" .

My memory might be going, but I am sure class 120 dmu's were marked C3 also.

There were "Metro Gauge" Mk1 suburban stock but I think they were C0 like the Hastings line stock.
Click to expand...

There seem to have also been slightly ammendments to done of the codes. The Class 460 seemed to have "C1 appendix 3". Presumably they had some variation that took them outside of the normal C1 restriction.
 
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etr221

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dubscottie said:
There were "Metro Gauge" Mk1 suburban stock but I think they were C0 like the Hastings line stock.
Click to expand...
The 'Metro Gauge' Mk I suburban coaches were standard 57ft Mk I suburban coaches, but with altered roof ventilators - sufficient for them to work through to Moorgate off the Midland, and their use was (AIUI) defined in working instructions (what was the position over the ER trains to Moorgate? Did they never use BR standard coaches, or was the loading gauge of the lines they did use that little bit larger?)

The intriguing question is how would the proposed BR standard loco hauled coaches for the Hastings line (would have been 57ft long, 8ft wide - the order was changed change so they emerged as the short Hastings demus) have been coded?
 
hexagon789

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etr221 said:
The intriguing question is how would the proposed BR standard loco hauled coaches for the Hastings line (would have been 57ft long, 8ft wide - the order was changed change so they emerged as the short Hastings demus) have been coded?
Click to expand...

Would they not maybe have used the C0 code for these regardless? Unless it was specifically introduced for them after introduction as DEMUs.
 
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hexagon789 said:
Any idea what carries it? Mk4s are C3 avd I can't find a Pendolino data panel but I'd guess it mighy apply to them.
Click to expand...
I'd assume that it would only apply to stock that is actually tilt-enabled, and as Mk4s don't actually tilt their profile stays within the C3 gauge.
 
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etr221 said:
But changes in suspension design, etc., and consideration of dynamic gauging, have meant that the principles behind such gauges are now effectively obsolete, with pretty well everything now needing specific clearance.
Click to expand...
That's the bit I just don't get.

In the "bad" old days, the civil engineer ensured his structures and track conformed to a specific structure gauge. In turn, the rolling stock engineer ensured his stock conformed to a specific loading gauge.

Everyone knew exactly where they were and the only things separately gauged were out of gauge loads. Now it seems every new piece of kit has to be tried out on any line it intends to run on to see if it fits!
 
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