No doubt I’ll be told off for this as well by the everything’s fine brigade, but I have a new complaint with these units. I’m currently travelling on one of the 800/3s, along a route I have travelled on near daily for many years, at linespeed. Yet nothing I’ve travelled on has oscillated this badly before. There’s a lot of side to side motion and subsequent rattling / creaking.
Unfortunately for this forum I’ve filmed it as a video but can’t upload it.
There you go again Jimm, leaning on Clarence yard for all your replies. We know he has his finger on the pulse and works in the front line and I for one respect that. I disagree with him on points of the IET as a train now but that`s a viewpoint. I am also fully aware that some of the 802`s were intended for the Cotswolds routes hence the reason seven further 9 car units were introduced. Incidentally that cannot have been true when the original DtT procurement of 21 Electric 9 car and 36 bi mode 5 car for the South Wales routes was made can it as there was no mention of replacing the West of England stock at that time so why would they now need 802`s on these routes. Surely with all the millions spent on consultations and various other money drains they would have known this.
I was under the impression that splitting/joining at Oxford had been dropped, because of punctuality issues.
Doesn't the Worcester route not have a clock face timetable anyway?
I wouldn't worry yourself about it too much Jimm. There's a core of forum members here who won't be told anything except the negative when it comes to IETs - the fact is there are plus and minus points - I'm sitting on the 0740 Paignton-Paddington via Bristol now, and the 802 is keeping time far better than the previous HST ever did.I assume this mean to be a reference to me, so would you please enlighten me as to where exactly I have ever said everything is perfect, or anything remotely like that?
There is a world of difference between saying that and commenting on things that are wrong, half-baked, nonsense, etc. And often repeated
Yesterday I too experienced some rough riding on an 800, but then I have also experienced rough riding on Mk4s, which no one ever seems to have got to grips with in 30 years, and the 180s in their early years, to give an example from GW-land, which could be truly awful on anything but the most beautifully-tamped track with continuous welded rails and still lurched across pointwork in some places until they left GWR at the end of 2017.
Please explain why I should not cite factual information from someone within GWR? What exactly is your problem with me, or anyone else, doing so? Since when have I relied on Clarence Yard for "all" my replies?
Sets from the initial order for 802s were always intended to help out with peak time workings on the Cotswold Line, because, as I said, the initial order for IETs placed by the DfT did not provide the number needed to operate the timetables that the DfT told GWR it wanted to see in future.
The follow-on order for seven more nine-car 802s was made because of the decision to put Oxford electrification on hold, making it impossible for Class 387s to cover some of the Oxford fast services, as initially planned, and the decision to maintain through services between London and Bedwyn, rather than passengers at the stations west of Newbury being put in a Turbo shuttle. The extra nine-car sets allowed for 2x5 formations to be split up to cover the higher number of five-car duties that resulted from those decisions.
The Cotswold Line has steadily got closer to a baseline hourly service over the years, but isn't quite there yet. There are still trains that turn back at Moreton-in-Marsh from Monday to Saturday, but it will be hourly between London and Worcester from the start of the new timetable - plus the usual peak extras into London in the morning and back in the afternoon peak.
It isn`t just based on opinion though is it. Valid reasons have been given and you just dismiss it all in one sentence as anecdotal. That the Dft didn`t order enough trains for GWR on the South Wales Cotswolds lines goes to show what a cock up this project has been all along. Millions or possibly billions spent on consultations couldn`t forsee this? The electrification fiasco, some poorly built brand new trains with cheap looking interiors, costs running billions over budget. Sounds a bit more than anecdotal to me. As to the 802 keeping time far better than a 40+ year old train, I don`t think that`s even worth a statement and if you take that over that time period it isn`t true anyway.I wouldn't worry yourself about it too much Jimm. There's a core of forum members here who won't be told anything except the negative when it comes to IETs - the fact is there are plus and minus points - I'm sitting on the 0740 Paignton-Paddington via Bristol now, and the 802 is keeping time far better than the previous HST ever did.
There are some valid points being made (albeit so hammered they are rather boring now), but just be happy in the thought that a number of specific individuals continually post based on opinion and anecdote rather than fact and first-hand knowledge.
You've rather evidenced the 'opinion and anecdote' aspect of my post, haven't you?It isn`t just based on opinion though is it. Valid reasons have been given and you just dismiss it all in one sentence as anecdotal. That the Dft didn`t order enough trains for GWR on the South Wales Cotswolds lines goes to show what a cock up this project has been all along. Millions or possibly billions spent on consultations couldn`t forsee this? The electrification fiasco, some poorly built brand new trains with cheap looking interiors, costs running billions over budget. Sounds a bit more than anecdotal to me. As to the 802 keeping time far better than a 40+ year old train, I don`t think that`s even worth a statement and if you take that over that time period it isn`t true anyway.
Apologies, I didn't address the 'cock up', as you put it, in ordering enough trains.It isn`t just based on opinion though is it. Valid reasons have been given and you just dismiss it all in one sentence as anecdotal. That the Dft didn`t order enough trains for GWR on the South Wales Cotswolds lines goes to show what a cock up this project has been all along. Millions or possibly billions spent on consultations couldn`t forsee this? The electrification fiasco, some poorly built brand new trains with cheap looking interiors, costs running billions over budget. Sounds a bit more than anecdotal to me. As to the 802 keeping time far better than a 40+ year old train, I don`t think that`s even worth a statement and if you take that over that time period it isn`t true anyway.
There were not enough trains ordered in the original 800 build. The proposed formations in the original DfT/SDG plan were insufficient for the loadings and this had to be addressed via the initial 802 order.
The move to bi-modes for the 800 9 cars dropped the TARA availability from 18 to 17 and that had to be addressed via the 2nd 802 order which also had to directly/indirectly deal with the Oxford/Bedwyn issues.
That does make a little more sense now as I had thought the Bedwyns were originally considered in the order. My bad too. Clarence Yard as ever on hand to clarify things.Apologies, I didn't address the 'cock up', as you put it, in ordering enough trains.
Enough trains were ordered, but the additional 802s for the Cotswold route will displace 800s to work to Bedwyn to maintain the existing through services.
The original plan for Bedwyn had been 387s to Newbury with a Turbo shuttle from there, so the opportunity was taken to maintain the through service, increase capacity, displace more Turbos towards Bristol and add 7 extra 9-car IETs into the fleet - win-win in my view.
Hmmm I regularly drive the train u mention and never had a problem keeping it to time as an HST so not quite sure what point you are making there???? Is that first hand enough for you???I wouldn't worry yourself about it too much Jimm. There's a core of forum members here who won't be told anything except the negative when it comes to IETs - the fact is there are plus and minus points - I'm sitting on the 0740 Paignton-Paddington via Bristol now, and the 802 is keeping time far better than the previous HST ever did.
There are some valid points being made (albeit so hammered they are rather boring now), but just be happy in the thought that a number of specific individuals continually post based on opinion and anecdote rather than fact and first-hand knowledge.
I'm sorry but I simply don't agree and as a daily user of that service suspect I travel on it more regularly than you drive it. There was never enough dwell time at the likes of Starcross, Exeter St Thomas, Nailsea or similar (except when a second TM was provided to assist with doors).Hmmm I regularly drive the train u mention and never had a problem keeping it to time as an HST so not quite sure what point you are making there???? Is that first hand enough for you???
Hmmm I regularly drive the train u mention and never had a problem keeping it to time as an HST so not quite sure what point you are making there???? Is that first hand enough for you???
If it ever actually operated in electric mode in the first place!
It's all about regulation my friend. So often running on time and at bristol west checked down due to a conflicting movement although admittedly this does seem to have improved a little lately. Similarly in past six months it has been Penzance drivers from Newton abbot to Exeter and they do not have experience at stopping at the starcrosses and st Thomas of this world , whereas Plymouth men are used to stopping at these and thus are far better at keeping time. I suspect the improvement now being seen is as much to do with Penzance drivers increasing in confidence at stopping at those little stations.In the spirit of data and facts as evidence, I've pulled the recent arrival times for 1A12 into Bristol. The first two weeks are HST operated, the subsequent three weeks are IET operated. The figure is against the Bristol Temple Meads arrival time (0957).
15 April - 1002 - 5L
16 April - 1007 - 10L
17 April - 1003 - 6L
18 April - 1002 - 5L
19 April - Cancelled
22 April - 0957 - RT
23 April - 1005 - 8L
24 April - 1012 - 15L
25 April - 0959 - 2L
26 April - 1000 - 3L
HST operated above
IET operated below
29 April - 0957 - RT
30 April - 1003 - 6L
1 May - 0957 - RT
2 May - 1002 - 5L
3 May - 1013 - 16L
6 May - 0957 - RT
7 May - 0958 - 1L
8 May - 0958 - 1L
9 May - 0957 - RT
10 May - 0957 - RT
13 May - 0958 - 1L
14 May - 1000 - 3L
15 May - 0957 - RT
16 May - 0957 - RT
While every delay is not down to rolling stock, the recent uptick in performance on this particular service isn't just a coincidence.
Personally I'd say it's almost inevitable we will have to see a Change in the next couple of years such is the anger and opposition amongst customers and staff to the inadequate trolley services. Whether it will occur on all sets who knows but I think it's a fair assumption changes will be coming on the longer distance routes.....Does anyone know if any formal conversation regarding catering and buffet cars have taken place between GWR and DfT? Or is it a case of nothing is changing lets hope the passengers calm down and move on?
There social media is ripe with people complaining about trolleys not coming through and lack of catering. I mean it's going to be impossible to do on the 5 cars.
Does anyone know if any formal conversation regarding catering and buffet cars have taken place between GWR and DfT? Or is it a case of nothing is changing lets hope the passengers calm down and move on?
There social media is ripe with people complaining about trolleys not coming through and lack of catering. I mean it's going to be impossible to do on the 5 cars.
Personally I'd say it's almost inevitable we will have to see a Change in the next couple of years
It's pretty funny that this thread has gone from 'aaargh underfloor engines, voyager mark 2 grrr' rage to 'actually, I can't tell if they are running on diesel or not', Isn't it?Now thats an interesting point , i think i did see the panto up
If u can't tell your probably in an un powered coach. It is very noticeable (on 802s anyway) when sat in a diesel coach, though admittedly not quite as bad as voyagers in that respectIt's pretty funny that this thread has gone from 'aaargh underfloor engines, voyager mark 2 grrr' rage to 'actually, I can't tell if they are running on diesel or not', Isn't it?
I'm not convinced. The same data shows a similar trend for departure times from Nailsea & Backwell. We do occasionally sit at Bristol West, but the time was generally lost by sitting at unstaffed stations for twice as long as booked.It's all about regulation my friend. So often running on time and at bristol west checked down due to a conflicting movement although admittedly this does seem to have improved a little lately. Similarly in past six months it has been Penzance drivers from Newton abbot to Exeter and they do not have experience at stopping at the starcrosses and st Thomas of this world , whereas Plymouth men are used to stopping at these and thus are far better at keeping time. I suspect the improvement now being seen is as much to do with Penzance drivers increasing in confidence at stopping at those little stations.
If u can't tell your probably in an un powered coach. It is very noticeable (on 802s anyway) when sat in a diesel coach, though admittedly not quite as bad as voyagers in that respect
It is obvious when you're on diesel. They thrum away. Especially under acceleration. As you'd expect- they're on diesel and you're basically in a metal tube that will reverberate. The NVH has not been eradicated. It's just not as bad as a Voyager. And they don't smell of poo.
If they were replacing XCs 4 car Voyagers, with the Voyagers cascading to routes run by 158s or similar, then the 800s would be an improvement. Sadly, as I think may be becoming more accepted (on here), they are not really flagship intercity trains, they are highish density medium to long distance commuter interiors (bar a large waste of kitchen space)
It is obvious when you're on diesel. They thrum away. Especially under acceleration. As you'd expect- they're on diesel and you're basically in a metal tube that will reverberate. The NVH has not been eradicated. It's just not as bad as a Voyager. And they don't smell of poo.
If they were replacing XCs 4 car Voyagers, with the Voyagers cascading to routes run by 158s or similar, then the 800s would be an improvement. Sadly, as I think may be becoming more accepted (on here), they are not really flagship intercity trains, they are highish density medium to long distance commuter interiors (bar a large waste of kitchen space)
I don't get the 'proper intercity trains' marlarkey, with the exception of a missing buffet counter, they are intercity trains in my view.