GWR Class 800

Part of it is the lighting and the airline seating layouts. Us older people have grown up where inter city meant tables of four on each side, and the odd airline seat (ah, that lovely corridor stock...). To see a standard class carriage where it's majority airline seating and they look like the high density GWR HSTs (which were themselves quite a bit Ryanair) And the large expanses of dull plastic panels and the general colouring of the interior. The 444s are hardly luxury travel. Yes, they go to Weymouth, but not many people do really. Hence they tend to split at Bournemouth. You could argue the Liverpool - Norwich should be better (a 158 isn't it ?) than it is, but in reality very few people will travel all that way on it.... most will do 100 miles or less. The 800s are supposed to be different, or rather the utilitarian interiors are not the high density option, with better interiors and comfort on the longer routes..... it's Hobson's choice.

Justapunter said:

Part of it is the lighting and the airline seating layouts. Us older people have grown up where inter city meant tables of four on each side, and the odd airline seat (ah, that lovely corridor stock...). To see a standard class carriage where it's majority airline seating and they look like the high density GWR HSTs (which were themselves quite a bit Ryanair)

Click to expand...

They don't look anything like the high-density HSTs. There are far more tables, the legroom is significantly better and the seat backs are lower so there isn't the claustrophobic effect. As not everyone wants a table seat, I think the balance is about right, and indeed is similar to the Mk3 layout used for most of their lives in IC70 seat days.

The issue basically seems to be that (a) the seats themselves are a bit poor (but the new cushions help massively), (b) the colour scheme is a bit drab, and (c) that there is no buffet.

Beyond that it seems to be that FirstGroup is the issue - such as short-formations or locked-out units due to short staffing.

And the lighting is nowhere near as bad as the refurb HSTs. Even as built Mk3 lighting was way too bright; when I was younger and more rebellious I tended to go round switching them to half lighting which was nicer.

Bletchleyite said:

They don't look anything like the high-density HSTs. There are far more tables, the legroom is significantly better and the seat backs are lower so there isn't the claustrophobic effect. As not everyone wants a table seat, I think the balance is about right, and indeed is similar to the Mk3 layout used for most of their lives in IC70 seat days.

The issue basically seems to be that (a) the seats themselves are a bit poor (but the new cushions help massively), (b) the colour scheme is a bit drab, and (c) that there is no buffet.

Beyond that it seems to be that FirstGroup is the issue - such as short-formations or locked-out units due to short staffing.

And the lighting is nowhere near as bad as the refurb HSTs. Even as built Mk3 lighting was way too bright; when I was younger and more rebellious I tended to go round switching them to half lighting which was nicer.

Click to expand...

I agree, not everyone wants a table, the seat layout is about right IMO

The short froms, were initially because there weren't sufficient 800s delivered, but GWR was under pressure to send HSTs off-lease.
Now that they've almost all been delivered, things have settled down, shortforms are a lot rarer now.

Reliability of the 802s is still a concern. I was on an 802 that arrived at Penzance on 2/3 power. It couldn't achieve more than 42mph out of Totnes up Rattery bank. Driver said he would lose more time walking back down the train to reset the engines rather than continue on low power.
Similarly a friend reported his 802 following day also on an engine out. What was the point of specifying more power when it is rarely available on diesel where it is needed?

cactustwirly said:

I agree, not everyone wants a table, the seat layout is about right IMO

The short froms, were initially because there weren't sufficient 800s delivered, but GWR was under pressure to send HSTs off-lease.
Now that they've almost all been delivered, things have settled down, shortforms are a lot rarer now.

Click to expand...

Some shortforms yesterday because the 802s refused to couple up.

Certainly the 5-with-5-LOOU is almost non-existent now all the customer hosts are trained as “competent persons” - I can only recall perhaps one instance I’ve been aware of since Christmas.

Unit availability is another thing; I think next week will be interesting with a handful more sets required in traffic to oust the Turbos from the Bedwyns.

Railperf said:

Reliability of the 802s is still a concern. I was on an 802 that arrived at Penzance on 2/3 power. It couldn't achieve more than 42mph out of Totnes up Rattery bank. Driver said he would lose more time walking back down the train to reset the engines rather than continue on low power.
Similarly a friend reported his 802 following day also on an engine out. What was the point of specifying more power when it is rarely available on diesel where it is needed?

Click to expand...

Imagine what it'd be like with a single 750hp GU rather than a single 940...

Bletchleyite said:

They don't look anything like the high-density HSTs. There are far more tables, the legroom is significantly better and the seat backs are lower so there isn't the claustrophobic effect. As not everyone wants a table seat, I think the balance is about right, and indeed is similar to the Mk3 layout used for most of their lives in IC70 seat days.

The issue basically seems to be that (a) the seats themselves are a bit poor (but the new cushions help massively), (b) the colour scheme is a bit drab, and (c) that there is no buffet.

Beyond that it seems to be that FirstGroup is the issue - such as short-formations or locked-out units due to short staffing.

And the lighting is nowhere near as bad as the refurb HSTs. Even as built Mk3 lighting was way too bright; when I was younger and more rebellious I tended to go round switching them to half lighting which was nicer.

Click to expand...

I switch the 700 lighting to stand by at night as it is far too harsh

Railperf said:

Some shortforms yesterday because the 802s refused to couple up.

Click to expand...

Yes the coupling of units in service continues to be a problem (albeit one everyone except the dft saw coming).

samuelmorris said:

Imagine what it'd be like with a single 750hp GU rather than a single 940...

Click to expand...

I don't even want to contemplate it. We would be down to walking pace!!
LNER are lucky they are not having to run these extensively up the Highland Main Line yet. And their bi-modes are only 750hp!

Railperf said:

I don't even want to contemplate it. We would be down to walking pace!!

Click to expand...

9-car 800 (when they were still 750hp per engine), 1 engine out, over the Cotswolds on a really hot day.
0-60 two minutes, losing time against an HST... Wasn't fun.

Railperf said:

Reliability of the 802s is still a concern. I was on an 802 that arrived at Penzance on 2/3 power. It couldn't achieve more than 42mph out of Totnes up Rattery bank. Driver said he would lose more time walking back down the train to reset the engines rather than continue on low power.
Similarly a friend reported his 802 following day also on an engine out. What was the point of specifying more power when it is rarely available on diesel where it is needed?

Click to expand...

At least an 802 with an engine out can keep plodding along just at slightly lower speed/accel, lose one on an HST and it's more or less game over (forget about getting up Rattery!)

GW43125 said:

9-car 800 (when they were still 750hp per engine), 1 engine out, over the Cotswolds on a really hot day.
0-60 two minutes, losing time against an HST... Wasn't fun.
At least an 802 with an engine out can keep plodding along just at slightly lower speed/accel, lose one on an HST and it's more or less game over (forget about getting up Rattery!)

Click to expand...

0-60 for a Class 800 in diesel mode isn't bad with an engine out. I think they are usually around 95 to 100 seconds.
5-car 220/221's need to have a minimum 3 engines working to remain unassisted. And 4-car 220/221 Voyagers need a minimum 2 engines running. Not sure i have seen what the minimum requirement is for 800's and 802's.

There are special instructions for HST's on one power car. I'm sure they have to have a run at the bank. If I remember correctly they have to ring the signaller and he arranges for them to have an unchecked run without stopping providing adhesion is good and there are no temporary and emergency speed restrictions. SO no stopping at Totnes.

CLASS 253/254 (HST) - WORKING ON ONE ENGINE ONLY

The following supplement train operating company working instructions when a train is to proceed with only one power car available for traction :

1. Lines over which assistance must always be provided

Section of line

Remarks

Exeter St David’s to Exeter Central

Up direction only.

Par and Newquay

Assistance must be provided on the front in the down direction. In the up direction the assisting locomotive should not normally apply power and MUST NOT apply power when approaching AOCL level crossings.

Swansea Loop West Jn to Cockett Tunnel

Down direction only.

2. Lines over which assistance must be provided under certain conditions

• Newton Abbot to Plymouth
  
  
• Plymouth to Newton Abbot (train may proceed as far as Tavistock Jn if this would facilitate assistance)
  
  
• Paignton to Newton Abbot
  
  
• Par to St Austell
  
  
• Llandeilo Junction to Cockett Tunnel
  
  
• Fishguard Harbour to Clarbeston Road Junction
  
  If any of the following circumstances apply in respect of the above sections, assistance must be provided: a) the train comprises more than 8 trailer vehicles.
  
  b) rail head conditions in the area concerned are reported as poor, for example during falling snow, severe frost, drizzle or period of leaf fall.
  
  c) other technical problems exist with the train, to which the driver or the train operator’s fleet controller will draw attention.
  
  d) signalling equipment failures or temporary / emergency speed restrictions exist in the section preventing an unchecked run being made.
  
  3. Authority to proceed unassisted over the lines listed in 2. above.
  
  For trains comprising not more than 8 trailer vehicles, an HST may proceed unassisted provided that none of the circumstances listed in clause 2 exist and that the following arrangements are made:
  

1. a) the appropriate train operator’s fleet controller must obtain the permission of Network Rail operations control,
   
   
2. b) Network Rail operations control must ascertain that local weather conditions are suitable, and arrange (as far as is practicable) with the controlling signaller for a “clear run” to be provided as indicated below:
   

April 2009 55

Western Route Sectional Appendix Module WR1

From

To

Remarks

Signal E90 (West of Newton Abbot)

Signal E94 (West of Dainton)

--

Signal E94 (West of Dainton)

Signal DM227 (Marley Tunnel)

Applicable only to trains formed with 8 trailer vehicles. Train must not stop at Totnes or be routed via the Down Platform Line thereat.

Signal E98/E198 (Totnes)

Signal DM227 (Marley Tunnel)

Applies to trains formed with 7 trailer vehicles or less.

Signal E3/E203 (Totnes)

Signal E7 (East of Dainton)

--

Plymouth Station

Signal UM235 (Ivybridge)

--

Par

St Austell

--

Signal E190 (West of Newton Abbot)

Paignton

Applies only to trains formed with 8 trailer vehicles. Train must not stop at Torquay.

Paignton

Signal E109 (West of Newton Abbot)

Applies only to trains formed with 8 trailer vehicles. Train must not stop at Torquay.

Torquay

Signal E109 (West of Newton Abbot)

Applies only to trains formed of 7 trailer vehicles or less.

Signal PT255 (Llandeilo Jn)

Signal PT.261 (Swansea Loop West Jn)

--

c) the driver must contact the signaller, who after receiving instructions from Network Rail operations control, must instruct the driver accordingly at Exeter St David’s, Newton Abbot, Paignton, Totnes, Plymouth, Bristol Temple Meads, Llanelli, Carmarthen or Fishguard Harbour stations as appropriate

4. If the unassisted HST stops in section

If an unassisted HST stops within the section through which a clear run had been agreed, the following arrangements apply if the train cannot be re-started using train borne or trackside sanding equipment :-

• The driver must not attempt to re-start the train against the gradient until assistance is provided *. or

•

• NOTES:
  
  
• * Exceptionally, the train may continue from Plymouth station to Tavistock Junction, if this would facilitate assistance.
  
  
• Drivers are reminded that authority to proceed unassisted over gradients steeper than 1 in 80 will be given subject to a clear run being achieved on the approach to and over such gradients. Any attempt to restart the train on, or on the approach to, such gradients will potentially cause considerable damage to the power car.
  

bastien said:

It's pretty funny that this thread has gone from 'aaargh underfloor engines, voyager mark 2 grrr' rage to 'actually, I can't tell if they are running on diesel or not', Isn't it?

Click to expand...

I mean. I've only been on 802s and out of those handful of journeys I've always sat in cars 2,6 or 7. The diesel engines really aren't noticeable, even on the platforms, they certainly don't emit much visible smog. I picked up more noise from running in electric from the traction motors although I don't think that's something anyone would mind.

I found the interiors fine, the lighting was fine and the seats are adequate although maybe not for their plymouth/Penzance services. I think its a huge positive that with so many seats per coach, they were able to still get a bright, light and airy interior.

As for the more welcome start to the Azumas, their interior colour schemes certainly make them feel far less drab than GWRs units which may explain part of it.

Ethano92 said:

I mean. I've only been on 802s and out of those handful of journeys I've always sat in cars 2,6 or 7. The diesel engines really aren't noticeable, even on the platforms, they certainly don't emit much visible smog. I picked up more noise from running in electric from the traction motors although I don't think that's something anyone would mind.

Click to expand...

In my experience, even when I'm expecting the changeover, I have to really listen for it. I remember one occasion, I think it was at Reading, where there were enough people talking that the first indicator that we'd changed over was when we took off like the proverbial off a shovel. I've found there to be a noticeable change in vibration on some (not all) units, but I can't say it bothers me.

GW43125 said:

9-car 800 (when they were still 750hp per engine), 1 engine out, over the Cotswolds on a really hot day.
0-60 two minutes, losing time against an HST... Wasn't fun.



At least an 802 with an engine out can keep plodding along just at slightly lower speed/accel, lose one on an HST and it's more or less game over (forget about getting up Rattery!)

Click to expand...

If the 800s lose an engine, the remaining ones should uprate to the full 938hp to compensate. So an 800 with an engine out should in theory perform the same as a an 802 with an engine out.

northernbelle said:

If the 800s lose an engine, the remaining ones should uprate to the full 938hp to compensate. So an 800 with an engine out should in theory perform the same as a an 802 with an engine out.

Click to expand...

Should. Bear in mind this was the best part of a year ago and it was really hot, so the aircon would've been drawing a lot of power.

Ethano92 said:

I mean. I've only been on 802s and out of those handful of journeys I've always sat in cars 2,6 or 7. The diesel engines really aren't noticeable, even on the platforms, they certainly don't emit much visible smog. I picked up more noise from running in electric from the traction motors although I don't think that's something anyone would mind.

I found the interiors fine, the lighting was fine and the seats are adequate although maybe not for their plymouth/Penzance services. I think its a huge positive that with so many seats per coach, they were able to still get a bright, light and airy interior.

As for the more welcome start to the Azumas, their interior colour schemes certainly make them feel far less drab than GWRs units which may explain part of it.

Click to expand...

Believe me, when you are in one of the coaches that have a diesel engine underneath, they are very noticeable unless 1. you are running on electric, 2. the diesel generator unit has failed or needs to be reset.
I don't mind the general ambience of the GWR colour scheme. Yes, i do agree the red used in LNER is brighter, but then i do prefer a woman in a red dress rather than a green one haha.
LNER have been lucky enough to launch their service on a fully electrified line, with trains that have had the teething problems ironed out in their first 18 months running for GWR. And the LNER ones are barely running anywhere in diesel mode yet - except a short sprint from Doncaster to Hull. So we will see how long the feel good factor lasts once the LNER bi-modes are running with fare paying passengers in diesel mode - where the reduced performance and underfloor diesel engine drone will not be enjoyed by Aberdeen and Inverness customers used to the peaceful and serene confines of a Mk3 coach.

I don't think they are noticeable, certainly it's the quietest underfloor engined train I've ever been on. Really the only indication the engine is running is a small amount of vibration at idle, and not all units seem to suffer that. Sometimes you can hear a little bit of turbocharger whistle. Some units seem to be a bit jerky pulling away when on diesel.
They are astonishingly quiet considering, and far exceeded my expectations in terms of noise.
Don't get me wrong, I don't like engines under the floor but I can understand the reasons they selected that approach. And given that's the approach they took they've done a fine job of minimising the impact.

northernbelle said:

If the 800s lose an engine, the remaining ones should uprate to the full 938hp to compensate. So an 800 with an engine out should in theory perform the same as a an 802 with an engine out.

Click to expand...

Lots of theories around at present - few facts. I'm sure @Clarence Yard posted that the 940hp setting on Class 800's is more quickly ramped back to 750hp.
Apparently the 802's 940hp setting ramps back too but less aggressively over the speed range and possibly not back to 750hp. The higher top speed of Class 802's on diesel suggests the set back figure may be between 800 and 850hp but it is difficult to determine accurately.

What also isn't clear is whether the Class 802 engines power output is uprated when an engine is out. In that sense i mean whether the 940hp is now maintained through the speed range or not.Lots of mysteries on this one unless you are employed by Hitachi and maybe GWR.

I have been on an a pair of 802's with one engine out, and the performance was virtually identical to a pair of 800s on 6 engines. So the 802 power output settings do not seem to uprate at all when an engine is out.

trebor79 said:

I don't think they are noticeable, certainly it's the quietest underfloor engined train I've ever been on. Really the only indication the engine is running is a small amount of vibration at idle, and not all units seem to suffer that. Sometimes you can hear a little bit of turbocharger whistle. Some units seem to be a bit jerky pulling away when on diesel.
They are astonishingly quiet considering, and far exceeded my expectations in terms of noise.
Don't get me wrong, I don't like engines under the floor but I can understand the reasons they selected that approach. And given that's the approach they took they've done a fine job of minimising the impact.

Click to expand...

Have you been abroad a Class 230 DMU? They are very very quiet and smooth diesel engines. The traction motors and possibly gearbox makes more noise above 20mph. So i reckon they are quieter.
Either i have been unlucky to be aboard the noisiest Class 800's or my ears are over sensitive to the drone of diesel engines. As i sat aboard an 802 struggling over the Devon and Cornish hills, you could have blindfolded me and i could have believed i was aboard some other class of DMU. Honestly. I'm not having a whinge. Just simply stating the fact.
I'm tempted to buy a sound meter to take a definitive test.

Railperf said:

Reliability of the 802s is still a concern. I was on an 802 that arrived at Penzance on 2/3 power. It couldn't achieve more than 42mph out of Totnes up Rattery bank. Driver said he would lose more time walking back down the train to reset the engines rather than continue on low power.
Similarly a friend reported his 802 following day also on an engine out. What was the point of specifying more power when it is rarely available on diesel where it is needed?

Click to expand...

Don't you think you might be exaggerating just a bit with your suggestion that more power "is rarely available"? If that is the case, then the entire IET fleet must be suffering crippling engine problems - and I'm sure we would have heard all about that here...

Railperf said:

Have you been abroad a Class 230 DMU? They are very very quiet and smooth diesel engines. The traction motors and possibly gearbox makes more noise above 20mph. So i reckon they are quieter.

Click to expand...

Let's see, a lightweight two-car unit, with small diesel engines, with a top speed of 60mph, working on a line not noted for its gradients, is quieter inside than trains fitted with what must just about be the most powerful underfloor engine available, working over some of the steepest mainline gradients in the land and running at 100mph+ in other places. Who'd have thought it?

From my hearing's point of view, an 802 being worked hard has a marginally higher interior noise level than an 800, but both are quieter than most other underfloor-engined trains out there, such as the 180s and Turbos which I rode many a mile on over the years, and infinitely quieter than a 220 (all the more so if a Voyager driveshaft needs attention).

Railperf said:

Driver said he would lose more time walking back down the train to reset the engines rather than continue on low power.

Click to expand...

Said to who?

Just on a 10 car formation from Newton Abbot with my youngest, we had reserved seats in A, all the lights green and one or two paper reservation tickets in the seat backs. Nothing to show my seat is reserved, couple of other carriages the lights are working and there are paper reservation. I ask the TM do the reservations stand as I don't want to sit elsewhere and we get turfed out later when the train is rammed, his answer was, sorry there has been an issue, keep your tickets together you should be ok???? Very helpful... so I turfed the bloke out of our seats in a very English apologetic manner...

Sounds like somebody removed them, a disadvantage of paper.

The trains are considerably quieter under diesel mode than say Voyagers but in my experience to *not* hear them you have to sit in a trailer coach (and my hearing isn't great). There is though a lot of variation in the sound level between individual units - but that might be just me. Noise aside the difference in performance diesel vs electric is night and day.

I doubt it, it originated from Plymouth and it is the 1st journey of the day.

A change of subject but still on the GWR class 800. I heard that surfboards will not be carried on the new trains owing to lack of space. Is this true? Given that there are through summer trains to Newquay, the surfboard capital of the south-west, a lot of revenue is at risk if this is now the policy, not to mention more traffic on the roads. More seats crammed in equals more revenue, of course. There's also the early morning lobster traffic from Cornwall to London markets, which was carried on the HSTs. Apparently the sleeper gets to London too early, so I guess the lobsters too are now in lorries. No joined-up thinking, no seeing the wider picture. Who is to blame, DfT or GWR?

geoffk said:

A change of subject but still on the GWR class 800. I heard that surfboards will not be carried on the new trains owing to lack of space. Is this true? Given that there are through summer trains to Newquay, the surfboard capital of the south-west, a lot of revenue is at risk if this is now the policy, not to mention more traffic on the roads. More seats crammed in equals more revenue, of course. There's also the early morning lobster traffic from Cornwall to London markets, which was carried on the HSTs. Apparently the sleeper gets to London too early, so I guess the lobsters too are now in lorries. No joined-up thinking, no seeing the wider picture. Who is to blame, DfT or GWR?

Click to expand...

Yes it is true, and has been predicted for a couple of years. GWR apparently have posters up explaining it.

geoffk said:

A change of subject but still on the GWR class 800. I heard that surfboards will not be carried on the new trains owing to lack of space. Is this true? Given that there are through summer trains to Newquay, the surfboard capital of the south-west, a lot of revenue is at risk if this is now the policy, not to mention more traffic on the roads. More seats crammed in equals more revenue, of course. There's also the early morning lobster traffic from Cornwall to London markets, which was carried on the HSTs. Apparently the sleeper gets to London too early, so I guess the lobsters too are now in lorries. No joined-up thinking, no seeing the wider picture. Who is to blame, DfT or GWR?

Click to expand...

DfT, they were the ones that decided the design spec, and didn't include 'van' space

If it's not a Pullman service, can the lobsters not be stuck in one of the galleys