some bloke
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Point taken. I could perhaps have added that the intention was at least partly to show to the OP, in view of her points, that the bark may be worse than the bite.
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Transport investigations limited
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Point taken. I could perhaps have added that the intention was at least partly to show to the OP, in view of her points, that the bark may be worse than the bite.
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I sympathise with the OP because no offence has been committed - assuming all of what they have said is true and which I can only accept. If you can't buy a ticket before boarding at the station of origin from either a ticket office or working ticket machine what is the passenger meant to do other than to purchase a ticket at the destination station which you did.
ForTheLoveOf letter is fine and clear enough. Hopefully it should be enough to drop the case. You've cooperated at the earliest opportunity (many ignore letters/fines which is the worst thing to do as it can be seen to show a guilty mind) and the train operating company has offered no evidence that the machine was actually in working order - both of which will count in your favour. Do let us know how you get on. It's good we have these forums as it does provide a platform to highlight unscrupulous behaviour where no discretion has been applied.
ForTheLoveOf letter is fine and clear enough. Hopefully it should be enough to drop the case. You've cooperated at the earliest opportunity (many ignore letters/fines which is the worst thing to do as it can be seen to show a guilty mind) and the train operating company has offered no evidence that the machine was actually in working order - both of which will count in your favour. Do let us know how you get on. It's good we have these forums as it does provide a platform to highlight unscrupulous behaviour where no discretion has been applied.
ForTheLoveOf
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Break into the ticket machine, nick a ticket, write it out as a ticket for your journey, and leave your fiver in the machine
obviouslyI sympathise. A big part of the problem is third party contractors doing revenue collection on behalf of train operating companies. It is evident that the vast majority of staff are very poorly trained and lack sufficient legal knowledge. I read recently on here about a passenger with a disabled pass being given a penalty fare by a third party contractor. Northern immediately rescinded it but the issue still remains. My problem is that none of these ****bags really care other than getting their commission so how on earth are they in a position to apply discretion? It's a sad state of affairs.Break into the ticket machine, nick a ticket, write it out as a ticket for your journey, and leave your fiver in the machine
185
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Break into the ticket machine, nick a ticket, write it out as a ticket for your journey, and leave your fiver in the machine
Should be noted the machine at Wellington should take cash, but whether or not it actually does or not is arguable. S&Bs outdoor TVMs don't weather well.
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Is there any update on this matter?
Put simply, if the OP has a dated photograph of the TVM showing 'out of order' (or words to that effect) and the ticket office was on record as closed, then prosecution is very unlikely to succeed
The prosecution team will have checked the RPI's report, will have checked whether the ticket office was closed and will have checked with the TOC for a print-out of the computerised record to see if the TVM was issuing tickets at the material time.
It will be interesting to see whether a settlement is offered in this case?
Put simply, if the OP has a dated photograph of the TVM showing 'out of order' (or words to that effect) and the ticket office was on record as closed, then prosecution is very unlikely to succeed
The prosecution team will have checked the RPI's report, will have checked whether the ticket office was closed and will have checked with the TOC for a print-out of the computerised record to see if the TVM was issuing tickets at the material time.
It will be interesting to see whether a settlement is offered in this case?
185
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Not wanting to go off on a tangent, but I have serious concerns regarding Keolis Amey / TfWs use of contract prosecution firm Transport Investigations Limited (TIL), where those obvious, basic procedures you suggest may have been overlooked, intentional or otherwise on more than one occasion. I know that Ken Skates, Welsh AM for transport is aware of some issues regarding a quite similar situation also involving TIL.
Where there is real hard evidence of a failure to carry out the correct procedure it will always be possible to ensure that inappropriate action is avoided
Given that the situation on railways across Wales has not changed since the previous franchisee introduced the process in 2011, Ken Skates has been in charge for most of that time and perhaps much more directly involved under Transport for Wales, it seems that he and the Assembly are happy to continue
ForTheLoveOf
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What exactly do you mean by this?
Where there is irrefutable proof that a TOC, or their agents has failed to make the necessary checks to confirm that the ticketless traveller's version of events is correct.
For example;
If the ticket office was closed when NRE suggests it should be open, there will be a staff logged entry confirming that fact. the TOC or their agents can check that
If the TVM is working normally at the material time, it is relatively simple to get a print-out showing the issues in the time period - if a traveller who is reported by an RPI claims it was out of order, that should be checked
If the route is one worked by conductor guards (as all are in Wales) a query should be made with the conductor to see why no onboard revenue check was made
If you, I or A.N.Other have proof that none of these checks have been made when allegations are laid by a company, then it is fair to say that the TOC or their agents have been negligent and should be challenged, but if not, it needs more than a vague suggestion that they 'don't check or don't follow procedure'.
Given the high number of successful prosecutions for fare evasion in Wales over recent years, it appears that checks are made.
Hi
I’ve just read this thread, and I’ve got the same issue as the OP on the same bit of track but going in the other direction, my journey was 20 minutes later. I started at Wellington, and can confirm what the OP has said that the ticket machine was out of order and the ticket office closed.
I boarded the train to go to Wolverhampton and got approached on the train for a ticket which I didn’t have. I bought a ticket at Wolverhampton upon completing my first leg of the return, and have got the paper tickets for this return journey.
Got the report written by the inspector and have heard back from TIL. I’ve wrote back with the mitigating circumstances (ticket office closed, ticket machine not working, that I bought my tickets at my first available opportunity and included the tickets with the letter.)
They have subsequently written back to me, stating that it is always the responsibility of the passenger to declare the journey to on train staff and pay the fare due on boarding any train immediately. My issue with this is that no guard came down the train, and the train had barely left the station before I was approached by the inspector. I’m not sure if they mean that I’m supposed to go to the guard before boarding the train and telling them my journey and that I need to purchase a ticket?
I don’t really want to go to court over this, with the chance of a criminal record and an increased fine. The fee of £88 that they’ve offered is a lot for me to afford also.
I’ve just read this thread, and I’ve got the same issue as the OP on the same bit of track but going in the other direction, my journey was 20 minutes later. I started at Wellington, and can confirm what the OP has said that the ticket machine was out of order and the ticket office closed.
I boarded the train to go to Wolverhampton and got approached on the train for a ticket which I didn’t have. I bought a ticket at Wolverhampton upon completing my first leg of the return, and have got the paper tickets for this return journey.
Got the report written by the inspector and have heard back from TIL. I’ve wrote back with the mitigating circumstances (ticket office closed, ticket machine not working, that I bought my tickets at my first available opportunity and included the tickets with the letter.)
They have subsequently written back to me, stating that it is always the responsibility of the passenger to declare the journey to on train staff and pay the fare due on boarding any train immediately. My issue with this is that no guard came down the train, and the train had barely left the station before I was approached by the inspector. I’m not sure if they mean that I’m supposed to go to the guard before boarding the train and telling them my journey and that I need to purchase a ticket?
I don’t really want to go to court over this, with the chance of a criminal record and an increased fine. The fee of £88 that they’ve offered is a lot for me to afford also.
ForTheLoveOf
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They are completely wrong. If there are no ticketing facilities then that is that. How do they expect you to buy a ticket?! It is not the passenger's obligation to seek out a guard if they have not had an opportunity to buy a ticket before boarding. There is no such obligation, there never has been and there is nothing anywhere that even remotely suggests this.
TIL really, really need to get their heads around this extraordinarily basic part of the ticket irregularity process and it's extremely concerning that they are making false suggestions of wrongdoing on what seems to be a non-isolated basis.
Whilst paying the fee they are requesting is no doubt the easiest way of 'getting out' of this situation, if it were me I wouldn't even consider doing this. But of course it is a very personal decision for you.
It will be interesting to see what they say if you simply respond again pointing out that you have committed no offence and that, to put it mildly, they are barking up the wrong tree.
I’ve wrote back to their latest letter that I got earlier this week, asking for the inspectors report, and what exactly the charge is
ChooChooseMe
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some bloke
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I'd send that. You could also each tell TIL about the other's case (contacting each other via DM for reference numbers etc if you like).
Is this the wording they used - "it is always the responsibility of the passenger to declare the journey to on train staff and pay the fare due on boarding any train immediately"?
Yes that’s the exact wording, I’ve just checked the letter
Thank you for this, had no idea there was a site you could use to check when the machines have been out of order
ForTheLoveOf
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I believe it's an industry internal website, so not available to passengers.
some bloke
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This may be of interest:
http://transportinvestigations.co.uk/payments/have-you-been-reported/frequently-asked-questions/Transport Investigations Limited said:
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daodao
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Unfortunately, this doesn't actually provide guidance about what to do in this situation.
I stated previously that travelling from a station without a ticket in a penalty fare zone when the ticket office (if it exists) is closed and the station ticket machine (typically only 1 available) is out of order puts one at serious risk of being [unfairly] prosecuted if one can't then purchase a ticket from the guard while on the train before encountering an RPI.
Hopefully, the people affected in the cases in this thread won't be prosecuted and at worst will have to pay the sum requested. However, once caught, twice shy, so anyone who unfortunately suffers this experience would be well advised never again to board a train without a ticket (or permit to travel) in a penalty fare zone even if there are no working facilities to purchase a ticket at the station. They would have a black mark against their name, and may (however unfairly) acquire a criminal conviction.
TIL's behaviour is out-of-order, but sadly, life can be unfare.
ForTheLoveOf
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What exactly do you mean by this?
Just a couple of points - Whilst is may be helpful, I see that the first OP stated they were travelling at 2.30 p.m and the second '20 minutes later'. That report of TVM out of service was filed at around 08.15 and from experience, many of these are fixed within 4 hours or so. That's why I suggested that a traveller with a timed & dated photograph of an o/s machine has very good evidence of the facility failure at the material time.
The other point is that, having researched many of the successful prosecutions, it seems the modus operandi of the RPIs on a great many of these trains is for the conductor to go through asking 'Does anyone need a ticket?' and then the RPIs follow up with a full ticket check a few minutes later.
When they do this, a statement from the conductor confirms that the offer to sell a ticket was made and is then added to the RPI report. Anyone then found without a ticket who did not speak up when the conductor went through is deemed to have avoided the opportunity. On that basis, the Magistrates frequently convict.
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ForTheLoveOf
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With respect, the OPs who have found themselves in this situation would be wasting both their and our time if it was the case that a conductor had passed through the train offering them an opportunity to buy a ticket. I don't think there's any point in considering this possibility as a result; if the OPs are lying to us (which I don't believe to be the case) then they are the only ones who are going to suffer the losses of following advice predicated on false premises.
I have never suggested that the OPs are being untruthful. I haven't suggested that anyone consider this as a possibility. Whether you link the possibilities is entirely a matter for you.
All that this does highlight is the fact that on all forums like this, only one side of any matter is ever heard and I'm not suggesting that the OPs cases are any different to that which their postings suggest.
I have simply offered what my research into many successful prosecutions of these sort of cases has revealed.
ChooChooseMe
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Yes a timed and dated photo at the time would have been best but I’d imagine as we are talking some time after now, it wasn’t obtained, I’m not sure on your experience (in a genuine tone not a sarcastic one) with TyrellCheck but it also gives a message when a TVM is fixed, there was no such message on that day.
some bloke
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Transport Investigations Limited said:
Agreed - it says what the companies are supposed to do, but may not have done in these cases.
mallard
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There are also plenty of ticket machine failure modes which are not automatically detectable, no matter how good their "monitoring" is.
For example: someone stuffs chewing gum into the card slot. In that particular case, it may still be possible to purchase fares below the contactless limit (currently £30), so even a "when was the last time this machine was used" monitoring system won't be of any help. It's not at all clear what the passenger's rights (I know that's a dirty word on this forum) are; the current railway rules do not address the situation where it's possible to purchase some tickets, but not the one you actually want.
For example: someone stuffs chewing gum into the card slot. In that particular case, it may still be possible to purchase fares below the contactless limit (currently £30), so even a "when was the last time this machine was used" monitoring system won't be of any help. It's not at all clear what the passenger's rights (I know that's a dirty word on this forum) are; the current railway rules do not address the situation where it's possible to purchase some tickets, but not the one you actually want.
I'd say it is pretty clear: if you can't purchase the ticket you want with the payment means of your choice then you don't have an opportunity to purchase.
mallard
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Even that seems to only be written down in the Penalty Fare regulations (S(6)(4) The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018), the ordinary NRCOT (S6.1) says nothing on the matter, in fact it seems to state that if you can buy any ticket before travelling, regardless of its suitability to your journey, you must do so. Nothing directly addresses the problem of a contactless-only TVM only allowing the purchase of tickets less than £30. Is contactless a different "means" to a full card reader? The old NRCOC used to have a clause that would allow you to exchange a ticket for the one you wanted (and pay only the difference) when a TVM can't/won't sell your desired ticket, but that no longer applies.
The old NRCoC used to say that you had to buy a ticket to cover part of your journey and use it as credit towards the ticket you actually want. That was taken out in the changeover.
The only way that the later term: "In these cases, you must, as soon as you are reasonably able, buy an appropriate Ticket to complete your journey. The price of the Ticket you purchase will be the same as if you had bought a Ticket at the station from which you first departed." can be true if you have to buy another ticket to start your journey.
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