Refund on inbound and outbound advanced singles due to revised arrival time?

MikeS8 · 18 May 2019

Last Monday I booked the following tickets through the Trainline:

Sheffield – Glasgow Central (Leaving 8.08, arriving 12.42 on Saturday 18.05.2019 on Trans Pennine)

Pollokshaw East – Sheffield (Leaving 16.25, arriving 21.53 on Saturday 18.05.2019 on Cross Country)

I had to be on the exact train leaving Sheffield at 8.08am, as I was scheduled to watch and photograph a football match in Pollok, Glasgow, kicking off at 2pm.

On arriving at Manchester Piccadilly this morning, I discovered the train was no longer running to Glasgow, terminating instead at Carlisle. The rail replacement bus service would have arrived at Glasgow after 2pm, which was completely useless to me so I was forced to abandon the trip. It effectively meant both of the advanced tickets couldn’t be used.

I received no notification of the outbound changes and would never have booked the tickets if I knew the scheduled arrival was after 2pm. Apparently, Trans Pennine had announced the change on their website after I had booked the tickets. I clearly wasn’t the only one unbeknown to this, as apparently “at least fifty other people” had asked customer services the same question at Manchester Piccadilly station.

The Trainline claimed that as I’d already started the journey, I couldn’t claim a refund, but might be entitled to delay/repay on the outbound journey. Moreover, they said it was my responsibility to check with the train company beforehand for any likely delays. I therefore have three questions:

If a ticket is sold on the basis is it arrives at a certain time, and this time is changed after the sale, what rights does the consumer have for a refund on two advanced single tickets with two different companies (in my case, Trans Pennine outbound, Cross Country inbound) if the revised arrival time isn’t suitable and subsequently negates the need/use for the inbound ticket?
Is it the passenger’s responsibility to check the company’s website for potential delays/changes after purchasing a ticket? Or the seller’s responsibility to advise the customer?
Is it true that once you start a journey (unbeknown of changes ahead) that you forfeit rights to a full refund (on either one or both tickets)?

Thanks in advance.

RailUK Forums

yorkie · 18 May 2019

MikeS8 said:
The Trainline claimed that as I’d already started the journey, I couldn’t claim a refund, but might be entitled to delay/repay on the outbound journey.

They have given you incorrect information.

MikeS8 said:
Moreover, they said it was my responsibility to check with the train company beforehand for any likely delays.

This is an irrelevance to your entitlement to a refund for an abandoned journey and/or delay compensation, as appropriate.

In this case, as you abandoned the journey it is a 100% refund from the retailer.

Had you travelled, it would have been a delay repay claim from TPE.

If a ticket is sold on the basis is it arrives at a certain time, and this time is changed after the sale, what rights does the consumer have for a refund on two advanced single tickets with two different companies (in my case, Trans Pennine outbound, Cross Country inbound) if the revised arrival time isn’t suitable and subsequently negates the need/use for the inbound ticket?

Full refund for all tickets from the retailer.

I assume all tickets were purchased in the same transaction from Trainline, is that right? If so, it should be relatively straightforward.

MikeS8 said:
Is it the passenger’s responsibility to check the company’s website for potential delays/changes after purchasing a ticket? Or the seller’s responsibility to advise the customer?

If the passenger wants to know the latest status of their train, the passenger would need to check.

But there is no compulsion for you to do so.

Any refund or delay repay rights are based on the original contract.

MikeS8 said:
Is it true that once you start a journey (unbeknown of changes ahead) that you forfeit rights to a full refund (on either one or both tickets)?

No; if disruption that was unknown to you when you bought the ticket occurs, you can claim a 100% refund from the retailer providing you do not complete the journey and you return promptly to your origin.

ForTheLoveOf · 18 May 2019

MikeS8 said:
Last Monday I booked the following tickets through the Trainline:

Sheffield – Glasgow Central (Leaving 8.08, arriving 12.42 on Saturday 18.05.2019 on Trans Pennine)

Pollokshaw East – Sheffield (Leaving 16.25, arriving 21.53 on Saturday 18.05.2019 on Cross Country)

I had to be on the exact train leaving Sheffield at 8.08am, as I was scheduled to watch and photograph a football match in Pollok, Glasgow, kicking off at 2pm.

On arriving at Manchester Piccadilly this morning, I discovered the train was no longer running to Glasgow, terminating instead at Carlisle. The rail replacement bus service would have arrived at Glasgow after 2pm, which was completely useless to me so I was forced to abandon the trip. It effectively meant both of the advanced tickets couldn’t be used.

I received no notification of the outbound changes and would never have booked the tickets if I knew the scheduled arrival was after 2pm. Apparently, Trans Pennine had announced the change on their website after I had booked the tickets. I clearly wasn’t the only one unbeknown to this, as apparently “at least fifty other people” had asked customer services the same question at Manchester Piccadilly station.

The Trainline claimed that as I’d already started the journey, I couldn’t claim a refund, but might be entitled to delay/repay on the outbound journey. Moreover, they said it was my responsibility to check with the train company beforehand for any likely delays. I therefore have three questions:

If a ticket is sold on the basis is it arrives at a certain time, and this time is changed after the sale, what rights does the consumer have for a refund on two advanced single tickets with two different companies (in my case, Trans Pennine outbound, Cross Country inbound) if the revised arrival time isn’t suitable and subsequently negates the need/use for the inbound ticket?

Is it the passenger’s responsibility to check the company’s website for potential delays/changes after purchasing a ticket? Or the seller’s responsibility to advise the customer?

Is it true that once you start a journey (unbeknown of changes ahead) that you forfeit rights to a full refund (on either one or both tickets)?

Thanks in advance.

Just to add to what @yorkie has said, the fact that the timetable was changed after you booked your tickets does not affect the contract you made before this change, nor does it in any way diminish your rights in respect of that originally made contract.

Clearly, bustitution is a substantial and unilateral variation to the contract - and so even if the NRCoT did not provide for a refund in these circumstances (which they do, further reinforcing your rights), it would be a breach of contract for Trainline to refuse to give you a refund if you then rejected the variation by returning to your origin at the point you found out about the variation.

robbeech · 18 May 2019

It’s disappointing advice from Trainline, they’ve actually been improving with things like this recently. Was it a social media interaction or an online chat / telephone conversation? The latter 2 tend to fall short but the twitter team seem to get it right fairly often. I’m not suggesting that the public nature of social media forces them to do the right thing but if it works in the passengers favour it can only be positive.

The railway is rife with late timetable changes at the moment, people unable to travel, being late, not getting home, and nobody is really doing anything about it. Many TOCs and retailers / ticket offices are suggesting that tickets for trains that don’t exist are simply invalid and a new one must be purchased. The TOCs are seeing increased revenue from this.

Whilst your journey didn’t go to plan, all is not lost in terms of the refund. I assume you didn’t have to purchase another ticket to get home?

gray1404 · 18 May 2019

Just to add in agreement to what has been said, if you begin your journey and encounter disruption you are entitled to abandon your journey (including returning to the point of origin if you wish) and then claim a 100% refund of the tickets you are travelling on. It does not matter if are using one ticket or a combination, you are entitled to a fee free refund on all. In this case you are using two single tickets to make up a return journey and you would be entitled to a full refund on both.

MikeS8 · 19 May 2019

Thanks for the replies. It’s much appreciated. To address the questions above:

I phoned the Trainline from Manchester station after learning the train was terminating at Carlisle. They were adamant I couldn’t claim a refund from them as I had started the journey and should have checked for delays or changes before leaving Sheffield. I was even put on hold while they spoke to Trans Pennine, who apparently confirmed their view. They suggested putting a delay/repay claim in with Trans Pennine for the outbound journey, but washed their hands of responsibility for the inbound journey.

I then phoned Trans Pennine, who - unsurprisingly - advised it was the Trainline’s responsibility to refund my tickets. However, Trans Pennine suggested emailing my tickets to their complaints team with a covering note, so a refund enquiry could be made to the trainline on my behalf. I do so yesterday and will wait and see what happens.

And yes, I had to purchase a single ticket (for £13) back to Sheffield from Manchester. The ticket office at Manchester Piccadilly advised my inbound ticket was for a specific train on a different route and therefore not valid to get me home. I’ve put a claim in for this, too. Either way, it was a final kick in the teeth and added to the frustration of a wasted morning.

What this episode highlights is how disjointed the ticketing refund policy is in this country. Nobody seemed to be armed with the correct information and the default response was to blame someone else.

thejuggler · 19 May 2019

Trainline operate like Ryanair. "Rules are for others."

Keep fighting and simply avoid using them.

ForTheLoveOf · 19 May 2019

MikeS8 said:
And yes, I had to purchase a single ticket (for £13) back to Sheffield from Manchester. The ticket office at Manchester Piccadilly advised my inbound ticket was for a specific train on a different route and therefore not valid to get me home. I’ve put a claim in for this, too. Either way, it was a final kick in the teeth and added to the frustration of a wasted morning.

Completely incorrect by them too - if you abandon your journey due to disruption then contractually and at common law you are entitled to return to your origin station with the original ticket you hold. Which ticket office did you speak to - the Virgin Trains one? Also worth putting in a complaint to them about that.

Trainline now owe you a full refund of your original tickets. Virgin owe you a refund of the additional ticket you were misled into buying.

ForTheLoveOf · 19 May 2019

MikeS8 said:
They were adamant I couldn’t claim a refund from them as I had started the journey and should have checked for delays or changes before leaving Sheffield.

Haha, what a joke. Perhaps they'd like to tell you exactly which condition of their terms of sale, or the NRCoT, contains this purported requirement. And what about if you didn't have a phone that you could use to look this up - say you'd ran out of battery or mobile data?

najaB · 19 May 2019

MikeS8 said:
What this episode highlights is how disjointed the ticketing refund policy is in this country.

On a point of order, the policy is actually quite simple and clear: if you decide not to travel or if you abandon your journey due to either changes to the timetable or delays then you are entitled to a full refund from the ticket seller.

The problem is implementation.

Bletchleyite · 19 May 2019

najaB said:
On a point of order, the policy is actually quite simple and clear: if you decide not to travel or if you abandon your journey due to either changes to the timetable or delays then you are entitled to a full refund from the ticket seller.

The problem is implementation.

It would be a lot easier if it was simply considered that a failure to reach your destination was seen as a 2 hour Delay Repay claim instead.

Haywain · 19 May 2019

Bletchleyite said:
It would be a lot easier if it was simply considered that a failure to reach your destination was seen as a 2 hour Delay Repay claim instead.

Would it? Does every TOC pay out 100% of the return ticket(s) for that level of delay? I'm not sure it's actually that clear cut.

Haywain · 19 May 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
Trainline now owe you a full refund of your original tickets plus a refund of the additional ticket you were misled into buying.

A refund of the ticket bought on the day for the journey back to Sheffield isn't due from Trainline - if anyone it is the ticket seller which, I'm guessing, was Virgin Trains. Trainline may, however, choose to issue compensation for the relevant amount.

yorkie · 19 May 2019

Bletchleyite said:
It would be a lot easier if it was simply considered that a failure to reach your destination was seen as a 2 hour Delay Repay claim instead.

Yes that would be a good solution but any such idea is best discussed further in a new thread as otherwise it will cause confusion to what is an existing issue relating to the current rules.

MikeS8 said:
Thanks for the replies. It’s much appreciated. To address the questions above:

I phoned the Trainline from Manchester station after learning the train was terminating at Carlisle. They were adamant I couldn’t claim a refund from them as I had started the journey and should have checked for delays or changes before leaving Sheffield. I was even put on hold while they spoke to Trans Pennine, who apparently confirmed their view. They suggested putting a delay/repay claim in with Trans Pennine for the outbound journey, but washed their hands of responsibility for the inbound journey.

Such misinformation is absolutely rife, sadly. It really does not surprise me at all.

If you want accurate information, this is the best place to be, as we have a lot of experts in one place and any incorrect information can be challenged.

MikeS8 said:
I then phoned Trans Pennine, who - unsurprisingly - advised it was the Trainline’s responsibility to refund my tickets.

That is correct.

MikeS8 said:
However, Trans Pennine suggested emailing my tickets to their complaints team with a covering note, so a refund enquiry could be made to the trainline on my behalf. I do so yesterday and will wait and see what happens.

TPE do have the discretion to do this, but it is Trainline's responsibility to. The situation is unfair on retailers, who incur all sorts of costs for very little commission, but it's not right to pass the buck when it comes to treating passengers fairly.

MikeS8 said:
And yes, I had to purchase a single ticket (for £13) back to Sheffield from Manchester. The ticket office at Manchester Piccadilly advised my inbound ticket was for a specific train on a different route and therefore not valid to get me home. I’ve put a claim in for this, too. Either way, it was a final kick in the teeth and added to the frustration of a wasted morning.

The ticket office at Manchester Piccadilly was incorrect, as you were abandoning your journey. The refund claim for that should go to Virgin as they were the company who mis-sold you a ticket you didn't need.

MikeS8 said:
What this episode highlights is how disjointed the ticketing refund policy is in this country. Nobody seemed to be armed with the correct information and the default response was to blame someone else.

Yes, some people are obsessed with other aspects of ticketing (which, actually, aren't broken!) and ignore the fact that thousands people are treated appallingly and given incorrect/misleading information when delays and cancellations occur, and then struggle to get their money back.

The current system is unfair on retailers and passengers alike, but let's discuss proposals to change it in a new thread...

Edit: I have created a new thread here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-delays-cause-journey-to-be-abandoned.182972/

ForTheLoveOf · 19 May 2019

Haywain said:
A refund of the ticket bought on the day for the journey back to Sheffield isn't due from Trainline - if anyone it is the ticket seller which, I'm guessing, was Virgin Trains. Trainline may, however, choose to issue compensation for the relevant amount.

Right you are, corrected.

yorkie · 19 May 2019

Yes I agree with that.

If it was me, I'd have asked Trainline if I needed to purchase that ticket. Had they said yes, I'd have bought from them, thus keeping the complaint within one company.

If they had said no, I'd have spoken directly to the staff on the train (if practicable/possible).

If anyone wishes to discuss the fairness (or otherwise) of the current system and any suggestions to change it, please use this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-delays-cause-journey-to-be-abandoned.182972/

Refund on inbound and outbound advanced singles due to revised arrival time?

MikeS8

New Member

RailUK Forums

yorkie

Forum Staff

ForTheLoveOf

Established Member

robbeech

Established Member

gray1404

Established Member

MikeS8

New Member

thejuggler

Member

ForTheLoveOf

Established Member

ForTheLoveOf

Established Member

najaB

Veteran Member

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member

Haywain

Veteran Member

Haywain

Veteran Member

yorkie

Forum Staff

ForTheLoveOf

Established Member

yorkie

Forum Staff