GWR Class 800

Thunderer · 18 May 2019

I travelled on the late running 1B40 earlier out of Cardiff towards Swansea and the windows were absolutely filthy (800308). I also made a similar journey a few weeks ago on board 800316 and the windows were the same on that unit too. Are Hitachi not having time to clean the exterior of these trains when on depot? It gives a poor impression to passengers when they can't see outside through the windows properly. Disappointing really for a new train not to be properly cleaned.

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Railperf · 18 May 2019

jimm said:
Don't you think you might be exaggerating just a bit with your suggestion that more power "is rarely available"? If that is the case, then the entire IET fleet must be suffering crippling engine problems - and I'm sure we would have heard all about that here...

Let's see, a lightweight two-car unit, with small diesel engines, with a top speed of 60mph, working on a line not noted for its gradients, is quieter inside than trains fitted with what must just about be the most powerful underfloor engine available, working over some of the steepest mainline gradients in the land and running at 100mph+ in other places. Who'd have thought it?

From my hearing's point of view, an 802 being worked hard has a marginally higher interior noise level than an 800, but both are quieter than most other underfloor-engined trains out there, such as the 180s and Turbos which I rode many a mile on over the years, and infinitely quieter than a 220 (all the more so if a Voyager driveshaft needs attention).

Jimm...please tell me...if you leased a brand new car..would you find it acceptable it was only firing on 2 or 3 cylinders on a regular basis? I can guess the answer. I'm on a 5-car 800 travelling along your beloved Cotswold line and hey..all 3 engines are working - hooray. And actually my position in the coach (seat 46 ) is quieter than my previous 800 (your seat position in relation to engine location does make a difference). So..so.e good news to report. Yay. But i still do not agree the quantity of engine failures after 18 months is acceptable - even of they are not serious to cause services to be cancelled frequently yet.

Rob F · 18 May 2019

jimm said:
From my hearing's point of view, an 802 being worked hard has a marginally higher interior noise level than an 800, but both are quieter than most other underfloor-engined trains out there, such as the 180s and Turbos which I rode many a mile on over the years, and infinitely quieter than a 220 (all the more so if a Voyager driveshaft needs attention).

Infinitely quieter? So it makes no noise at all? I can see why you are a huge fan of them now.

jimm · 19 May 2019

Railperf said:
Jimm...please tell me...if you leased a brand new car..would you find it acceptable it was only firing on 2 or 3 cylinders on a regular basis? I can guess the answer. I'm on a 5-car 800 travelling along your beloved Cotswold line and hey..all 3 engines are working - hooray. And actually my position in the coach (seat 46 ) is quieter than my previous 800 (your seat position in relation to engine location does make a difference). So..so.e good news to report. Yay. But i still do not agree the quantity of engine failures after 18 months is acceptable - even of they are not serious to cause services to be cancelled frequently yet.

You're the one making claims that engine issues on IETs are regular, indeed so widespread are they that the installed power, you tell us, "is rarely available" - which hardly tallies with the very clear improvements in reliability and punctual operation across GWR, and not just in places where the IETs are running on electric power. But apparently we can look forward to frequent cancellations soon...

Where exactly is the statistical evidence to back up what you are saying? Or are you just going to adopt the tactic favoured by some here of making the same claim over and over, without any supporting information, bar the odd anecdote, in the apparent belief that if it is said often enough, it will eventually become the truth.

If Cotswold Line IETs were suffering crippling engine problems all the time, then they wouldn't be arriving in Moreton-in-Marsh from Evesham early after climbing Chipping Campden bank. Or waiting time at other places, day in, day out. Same goes for services on other GWR routes.

In case you are forgetting, HSTs - that would lose lots of time on that climb when running on one engine, especially on a dank morning with slippery rails - suffered a protracted period of engine problems after they were first introduced.

Maybe GWR just take a note of the (fairly random) days and times I am using their trains and make extra-sure that mollycoddled sets with freshly overhauled engines are laid on specially for me both ways, so they don't ruin my love affair with Class 800s...

Railperf · 19 May 2019

jimm said:
You're the one making claims that engine issues on IETs are regular, indeed so widespread are they that the installed power, you tell us, "is rarely available" -

You have misunderstood my point. The Class 802's have a higher power rating to enable them to perform over the more severe gradients on Cornwall, Devon and indeed the Cotswolds. Based on my own personal travel experience and those of others who i know regularly travel, we are still seeing a fair percentage of the 802;s running with at least one or more engines out - which essentially means they have the same or lower output than a standard Class 800 on all engines. So I do rightly ask, what is the point of specifying a train with say 20% more power - if that additional power is rarely available.

You are absolutely right that this is not such a chronic issue that it is crippling the service - but neither does it have to - to be a concern.

I do agree that HST's on a single power car are even slower - and i experienced that yesterday on a run to Swansea when 43 002 failed at Paddington. In that case, i would rather be aboard a 5-car IET on 2 / 3 engines or a 9-car with only 1 or 2 out with regards to minimising lateness.

But the HST's are gone now -end of that story. The current timetable will allow for some less than full power running - but the real test will come in December - when the faster timetable is introduced. It shouldn't be an issue on the fast electrified sections - unless we continue to see diesel running into Paddington - which is STILL occurring - but maybe not as frequently as before. I will be interested to see how the Plymouth and Penzance service develops - as this is the one where the 802's are going to be running the hardest and in diesel for most of the time.
I am starting to believe that maybe an all diesel version of the 800 should have been developed - which would have had the power to provide a better performance and some built in redundancy for when engine failures occur. Lets hope Hitachi can get these right in the meantime.

supervc-10 · 19 May 2019

Railperf said:
Jimm...please tell me...if you leased a brand new car..would you find it acceptable it was only firing on 2 or 3 cylinders on a regular basis?

Well, it depends on the car, the new Ford 1.5 turbo engine is a 3-cylinder with deactivation on the middle one, so it often runs on two!

However, I'm presuming that an 802 with an engine out has better performance than an 800 with an engine out?

Also, as said by many, the IETs certainly seem to have much better redundancy than other stock. Problem with the pantograph? Just run on diesel. Problem with an engine? Not an issue, the service can still run. From an operational point of view, that's a huge bonus.

404250 · 19 May 2019

Have the electric only trains for LNER got better performance than the bi-modes? I would have thought the engines and fuel weighs quite a lot?

Railperf · 19 May 2019

If they stick to the DfT soec..then no....i will be finding out very shortly

Peter C · 19 May 2019

May I ask, and apologies if this is not relevant to the current topic of conversation, but;
Having been at Didcot Parkway yesterday to see the end of the HSTs, I saw many IETs. Now that DID has wires, and electric units can run there, I have seen a few IETs changing to electric power whilst sat in the station. However, yesterday I saw a unit put the pantograph up as it left the station (at a fairly quick pace). Is this safe? Is it normal for drivers just to choose when to put the pantograph up or is it a set thing (e.g. they only do it at certain points)? Thanks.

-Peter

jimm · 19 May 2019

Peter C said:
May I ask, and apologies if this is not relevant to the current topic of conversation, but;
Having been at Didcot Parkway yesterday to see the end of the HSTs, I saw many IETs. Now that DID has wires, and electric units can run there, I have seen a few IETs changing to electric power whilst sat in the station. However, yesterday I saw a unit put the pantograph up as it left the station (at a fairly quick pace). Is this safe? Is it normal for drivers just to choose when to put the pantograph up or is it a set thing (e.g. they only do it at certain points)? Thanks.

-Peter

At low speeds or in stations, drivers can raise and lower pantographs at any location, but for high-speed changeovers, such as on IETs to and from the Oxford line that aren't stopping at Didcot, there are designated locations. In the case of the Oxford services this is at South Moreton, just to the south-east of Didcot. There are a series of signs in that area telling drivers where it is safe to make the changeover.

Peter C · 19 May 2019

jimm said:
At low speeds or in stations, drivers can raise and lower pantographs at any location, but for high-speed changeovers, such as on IETs to and from the Oxford that aren't stopping at Didcot, there are designated locations. In the case of the Oxford services this is at South Moreton, just to the south-east of Didcot. There are a series of signs in that area telling drivers where it is safe to make the changeover.

Oh OK. Thanks.
-Peter

jimm · 19 May 2019

Railperf said:
You have misunderstood my point. The Class 802's have a higher power rating to enable them to perform over the more severe gradients on Cornwall, Devon and indeed the Cotswolds. Based on my own personal travel experience and those of others who i know regularly travel, we are still seeing a fair percentage of the 802;s running with at least one or more engines out - which essentially means they have the same or lower output than a standard Class 800 on all engines. So I do rightly ask, what is the point of specifying a train with say 20% more power - if that additional power is rarely available.

You are absolutely right that this is not such a chronic issue that it is crippling the service - but neither does it have to - to be a concern.

I do agree that HST's on a single power car are even slower - and i experienced that yesterday on a run to Swansea when 43 002 failed at Paddington. In that case, i would rather be aboard a 5-car IET on 2 / 3 engines or a 9-car with only 1 or 2 out with regards to minimising lateness.

But the HST's are gone now -end of that story. The current timetable will allow for some less than full power running - but the real test will come in December - when the faster timetable is introduced. It shouldn't be an issue on the fast electrified sections - unless we continue to see diesel running into Paddington - which is STILL occurring - but maybe not as frequently as before. I will be interested to see how the Plymouth and Penzance service develops - as this is the one where the 802's are going to be running the hardest and in diesel for most of the time.
I am starting to believe that maybe an all diesel version of the 800 should have been developed - which would have had the power to provide a better performance and some built in redundancy for when engine failures occur. Lets hope Hitachi can get these right in the meantime.

You keep using the word rarely - perhaps you need to look it up in a dictionary.

seldom, infrequently, on rare occasions, hardly ever, scarcely ever, hardly, scarcely, almost never, once in a while, only now and then, not often, only occasionally, sporadically; informal once in a blue moon

If all the installed power on 802s is rarely available, then the number of engine faults must be astronomical. I'll ask again, where is your statistical, as opposed to anecdotal, evidence for swathes of IETs being laid low by engine problems?

Railperf · 19 May 2019

Where did i say ALL the installed power? If 1 engine fails..then that is not ALL the power is it?
If a 5 car 802 loses an engine - one out of the three - then it will perform no better than a standard 800. That isn't chronic, it doesn't lay up out of service. But the set will struggle ti keep time or lose time on a demanding route. And i am sure if GWR are paying for a Class 802 to be available for Penzance, they want one with all engines operational! This is a business world. I certainly would. Do GWR get a discount when an 802 is available but limping along on 2/3 power. Or do Hitachi pay the penalties for late running?

Railperf · 19 May 2019

404250 said:
Have the electric only trains for LNER got better performance than the bi-modes? I would have thought the engines and fuel weighs quite a lot?

Out of Stevenage on a downhill 1 in 200 gradient - 0 to 60 in 67 seconds (driver didn't apply full power until 38 seconds from start, 0 to 100mph in 134 seconds - and passed Hitchin in 3 mins 26 secs at 123mph. So pretty quick!. Need a level start and a full power start to properly compare. Driver did say earlier he is cautious to apply full power from start to avoid passengers falling over.

absolutelymilk · 19 May 2019

Railperf said:
Where did i say ALL the installed power? If 1 engine fails..then that is not ALL the power is it?
If a 5 car 802 loses an engine - one out of the three - then it will perform no better than a standard 800. That isn't chronic, it doesn't lay up out of service. But the set will struggle ti keep time or lose time on a demanding route. And i am sure if GWR are paying for a Class 802 to be available for Penzance, they want one with all engines operational! This is a business world. I certainly would. Do GWR get a discount when an 802 is available but limping along on 2/3 power. Or do Hitachi pay the penalties for late running?

You said that the additional power from the 802s is "rarely available" because engine failures are so common. This is the same as saying that the unit does not have access to all the power. Is there any evidence that this happens so often that it is rare that all the engines are working??

Clarence Yard · 19 May 2019

Regrettably about a sixth of the IET fleet are running about with an isolated GU. About a twelfth are running around diesel only. Only one or two units have both restrictions. It isn’t great.

People get too excited about total horse power. That’s not how Hitachi work. They set the engine up electronically to cope with an average diagram in an economic (in terms of engine wear) manner. The uplift when a GU drops out works in the same way - you don’t get unconstrained power all the time but you do get more. How close you are to the maximum you could get is unknown.

The different set up with an 802 is clearly seen in the acceleration rate and duration which is both faster and longer than a 800. Both have 940hp rated engines but the way they are currently set up is very different.

Peter C · 19 May 2019

In terms of the Class 800/802 differences, am I right in thinking that a short while ago there was a thing in the railway press about how the railways had been, for a want of a better word, "done" out of a better unit than the Class 800 because the 802s have been proven to be much better at something technical?

-Peter

Railperf · 19 May 2019

Thanks Clarence. Probably my experience is between a third to half the journeys experiencing at least 1 engine out, but that may be because i am picking up the same unit returning on its diagram. or maybe later in the day when the GU's have failed.

On a different note, interesting to see after all the fanfare of LNER's launch that the reservation system on their trains was not working today. How are efforts to deal with this issue - 18 months after launch?

Railperf · 19 May 2019

Peter C said:
In terms of the Class 800/802 differences, am I right in thinking that a short while ago there was a thing in the railway press about how the railways had been, for a want of a better word, "done" out of a better unit than the Class 800 because the 802s have been proven to be much better at something technical?

-Peter

My understanding is that the 800's could very easily match the 802's but are constrained by the DfT specification, in which a specific acceleration curve had to be met. And if I am understanding this correctly - whilst GWR would probably love the extra performance for operational purposes, the contracts are so complex, that it seems unlikely to happen - without someone demanding loads more money for it -especially as DfT are involved!

Peter C · 19 May 2019

Railperf said:
My understanding is that the 800's could very easily match the 802's but are constrained by the DfT specification, in which a specific acceleration curve had to be met. And if I am understanding this correctly - whilst GWR would probably love the extra performance for operational purposes, the contracts are so complex, that it seems unlikely to happen - without someone demanding loads more money for it -especially as DfT are involved!

Oh dear - the DfT seem to be doing everything they can to slow down the IETs! Am I right in thinking that GWR still don't have a full license (or whatever it's called) to run the IETs yet? Or is that old news? Because if so, that's reason 1. Reason 2 - the wires between the coaches being a ladder for getting to the roof and thus the wires. Reason 3 - The "Azumas" (stupid name) not meeting the standards (or whatever they are) for the East Coast (not GWR, but still).
Maybe the head of the DfT is a HST fan or something!

-Peter

Railperf · 19 May 2019

I wouldn't accuse the DfT of wanting to slow down anything. They specified the train. Hitachi built it - but clearly it uses components that can exceed the specification with regards to performance, and so the system is tuned to the customer requirements.

Much in the same way, BMW use exactly the same engines in many of the vehicles - but de-tune them deliberately to meet a particular model specification. I.E a 320i and 328i use exactly the same engine, but the 320i is the de-tuned model. The 328i is also detuned from the maximum power it can produce for reliability and fuel consumption purposes.
So the 800's meet what the DfT specified. They wanted a train with a specified level of performance - incidentally much faster than HST's and East Coast 91's are capable of - yet it also has to be able to meet the energy consumption requirements specified too. Hitachi have tuned the engines and the power setup to meet that as closely as they can.
I'm not privy to GWR's arrangements, but it was reported in the press that GWR approached Hitachi with regards to a more powerful version of the 802 - which Hitach could easily do - as the hardware simply needed a different level of tune, plus a few mods such as the bigger fuel tanks, rheostats on roof etc.

jimm · 20 May 2019

Railperf said:
Where did i say ALL the installed power? If 1 engine fails..then that is not ALL the power is it?
If a 5 car 802 loses an engine - one out of the three - then it will perform no better than a standard 800. That isn't chronic, it doesn't lay up out of service. But the set will struggle ti keep time or lose time on a demanding route. And i am sure if GWR are paying for a Class 802 to be available for Penzance, they want one with all engines operational! This is a business world. I certainly would. Do GWR get a discount when an 802 is available but limping along on 2/3 power. Or do Hitachi pay the penalties for late running?

Do you not understand what you wrote yourself?

Your initial comment was

What was the point of specifying more power when it is rarely available on diesel where it is needed?

What you were apparently suggesting is that it is rare/unusual for an 802 to actually have all its engines working and thus having all the installed power available.

For that to be the case, almost the entire fleet would have to running around with an engine out all the time.

Clarence Yard has now indicated that while there is a proportion of IET sets operating with engines that are not running - hardly a surprise - it is clearly not the case that almost the entire fleet is in that condition day in, day out.

So, much more often than not, all the installed power on the trains is available.

irish_rail · 20 May 2019

1a85 running with two engines out and losing time I notice. Not the end of the world right now but I hope they sort this out come December

Mikey C · 20 May 2019

So some units have been operating as diesel only as they have some sort of electrical issue, while others are operating with one or more diesel engines out.

Not brilliant really, considering how long the 800s have been in service now

samuelmorris · 20 May 2019

The wiki article referenced overheating issues last summer contributing to large numbers of GUs unavailable, is this true and if so, was it resolved? The weather is getting warmer again after all...

Railperf · 20 May 2019

irish_rail said:
1a85 running with two engines out and losing time I notice. Not the end of the world right now but I hope they sort this out come December

Is that an 800 or 802?

Railperf · 20 May 2019

On the flip side..class 802s in electric mode setting faster journey times. On GWRs last HST day, the 16.03 to Plymouth IET quietly set a 21min 40 second time from Paddington to Reading start to stop. Current fastest HST time in Railway performance society archives since 2008 is 22min 49sec. Pre Ladborke Grove remodelling slowdown - the fastest HST time was 20min 46sec.

D6975 · 20 May 2019

I have recently made my first journeys in class 800s. In every case the wifi wasn’t working. Is this common or was I just extremely unlucky?

Ps the seats are so bad that they actually caused me pain in the hips, I had to get up and walk about a bit

Bletchleyite · 20 May 2019

D6975 said:
Ps the seats are so bad that they actually caused me pain in the hips, I had to get up and walk about a bit

Which type of seat did you have? The newer moquette one or the older cloth one? There's a massive difference in my experience.

Railperf · 20 May 2019

Has anyone else noticed the hard seats lately? Lol

GWR Class 800

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