HST door open whilst moving - oncoming train hits it

Esker-pades · 17 May 2019

Just saw a report from The Scotsman that details an incident where a class 385 hit a door on one of the "classic" HST sets, "near Edinburgh Waverley". The HST was operating ECS (empty coaching stock) to Haymarket depot for the night, and the 385 was a service from Dunblane. The location given means that the collision can't have been at that high a speed, but obviously distressing for those involved. No injuries reported.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/trans...age-hits-another-train-as-they-pass-1-4928977

A ScotRail train carrying passengers has been hit by the door of another train that was swinging open as they passed, The Scotsman has learned.

The incident near Waverley station in Edinburgh did not damage the train from Dunblane and no-one was injured – though the startled driver leapt from her seat as it happened.

etc.

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hexagon789 · 17 May 2019

FelixtheCat said:
Just saw a report from The Scotsman that details an incident where a class 385 hit a door on one of the "classic" HST sets, "near Edinburgh Waverley". The HST was operating ECS (empty coaching stock) to Haymarket depot for the night, and the 385 was a service from Dunblane. The location given means that the collision can't have been at that high a speed, but obviously distressing for those involved. No injuries reported.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/trans...age-hits-another-train-as-they-pass-1-4928977

Not good, but thankfully doesn't sound especially serious.

a_c_skinner · 17 May 2019

I've had a few rides on 125s recently, probably my last few. Dispatch in passenger service seems to involve a staff member physically checking each door. At Alnmouth this means one staff member walking the whole train. Is this done as assiduously for ECS workings? After the deaths that lead to central locking being installed it is worrying that a door might open in traffic.

LowLevel · 17 May 2019

Slam doors open in traffic have always been a problem, Central Door Locking gives no indication as to any issue with the door itself so it requires a human to make sure it's closed though of course once the door is locked it is extremely difficult (though not impossible) to force it open now.

swt_passenger · 17 May 2019

LowLevel said:
Slam doors open in traffic have always been a problem, Central Door Locking gives no indication as to any issue with the door itself so it requires a human to make sure it's closed though of course once the door is locked it is extremely difficult (though not impossible) to force it open now.

Haven’t there been cases of the power car luggage compartment doors opening in the past?

LowLevel · 17 May 2019

swt_passenger said:
Haven’t there been cases of the power car luggage compartment doors opening in the past?

Yes. They're generally fitted with more robust double locking systems now.

Tom B · 17 May 2019

The news report implies that it was on the opposite side to the platform. Is there any indication given if the CDL is engaged but the door is still open, or will the bolt throw without the door there?

Bletchleyite · 17 May 2019

Tom B said:
The news report implies that it was on the opposite side to the platform. Is there any indication given if the CDL is engaged but the door is still open, or will the bolt throw without the door there?

The bolt will throw anyway. That's how you do dispatch - there is no "local door".

TheEdge · 17 May 2019

Tom B said:
The news report implies that it was on the opposite side to the platform. Is there any indication given if the CDL is engaged but the door is still open, or will the bolt throw without the door there?

No, if someone presses the door close button the CDL bolts will drop and hazard lights will extinguish. If you've got the half cocked version of interlock some (all?) Mk3s you'll also get interlock. Doesn't matter the state of any door. The only "indication" you get is by looking.

43096 · 17 May 2019

Based on what is written in the Scotsman article, I would say dispatch error rather than defect is more likely. I would also question ScotRail’s competency management if their drivers think the cab interlock light applies to slam door stock. There is no connection on the CDL between trailers and power cars.

hexagon789 · 17 May 2019

TheEdge said:
No, if someone presses the door close button the CDL bolts will drop and hazard lights will extinguish. If you've got the half cocked version of interlock some (all?) Mk3s you'll also get interlock. Doesn't matter the state of any door. The only "indication" you get is by looking.

Just the refurbished power door Mk3s I believe, with normal ones you could do 125mph with all the doors open!

TheEdge · 17 May 2019

hexagon789 said:
Just the refurbished power door Mk3s I believe, with normal ones you could do 125mph with all the doors open!

The GA Mk3s have rudimentary interlock. If the CDL is released its not possible to use the bell buzzer so it can stop RTS being given with the doors open. But as you say no link to the brakes or anything like that.

hexagon789 · 17 May 2019

TheEdge said:
The GA Mk3s have rudimentary interlock. If the CDL is released its not possible to use the bell buzzer so it can stop RTS being given with the doors open. But as you say no link to the brakes or anything like that.

So there are differences between the Mk3s then.

LowLevel · 17 May 2019

hexagon789 said:
So there are differences between the Mk3s then.

No. That's how they all are. It's a feature that was added but not really deserving of the term interlock, the door close button being pressed and the signal button being energised are the only things are affected.

Empty coaching stock services won't be dispatched by the bell/buzzer though and neither will trains dispatched by the RA indicator so that function doesn't help you here.

Alanko · 17 May 2019

The positive side to this is that the door probably knocked some of the billion dead flies off the front of that 385.

hexagon789 · 17 May 2019

LowLevel said:
No. That's how they all are. It's a feature that was added but not really deserving of the term interlock, the door close button being pressed and the signal button being energised are the only things are affected.

Considering how crude the system was said to be, it's interesting that it has the ability to not energise the signal button.

oldman · 17 May 2019

Tom B said:
The news report implies that it was on the opposite side to the platform.

From RTT, it left from platform 16 so it would have been a door on the platform side - near side when departing Waverley on the Fife lines with the Dunblane coming in on the Glasgow lines to platform 14. Which means that what went wrong was at Waverley, which is preferable to it being on the non-platform side of the train.

AshBod · 19 May 2019

LowLevel said:
No. That's how they all are. It's a feature that was added but not really deserving of the term interlock, the door close button being pressed and the signal button being energised are the only things are affected.

Empty coaching stock services won't be dispatched by the bell/buzzer though and neither will trains dispatched by the RA indicator so that function doesn't help you here.

Pretty sure the buzzer can be used with the doors unlocked (I've never had to do it) but we need to pull the pass com if using the buzzer in a station to contact driver so the train doesn't move if driver thinks he got signal to proceed.
ECS with TM will still be despatched with buzzer but this case looks like it might have been ECS-DOO?

TheEdge · 19 May 2019

AshBod said:
Pretty sure the buzzer can be used with the doors unlocked (I've never had to do it) but we need to pull the pass com if using the buzzer in a station to contact driver so the train doesn't move if driver thinks he got signal to proceed.

In my experience the buzzers in the cabs and DVT office will work regardless of the door state but the door panels won't if the CDL is released

AshBod · 19 May 2019

TheEdge said:
In my experience the buzzers in the cabs and DVT office will work regardless of the door state but the door panels won't if the CDL is released

Ah I see, yeah the one in the office will work to buzz 3-3 to driver so can speak to them. Makes sense for door panels not to work though with cdl released though!

LowLevel · 19 May 2019

AshBod said:
Ah I see, yeah the one in the office will work to buzz 3-3 to driver so can speak to them. Makes sense for door panels not to work though with cdl released though!

Correct, the driver guard phone in the buffet cars and TGS will work. The reason you pull the pass com first is so they don't get confused with the signal buzzer and set off with the doors open which has happened many many times.

HST door open whilst moving - oncoming train hits it

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