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More dangerous lineside behaviour around Flying Scotsman

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It is clear many posters have no idea why members of the public are so attracted to FS.
Frankly it baffles me... but equally I'm not in denial about quite how high the level of interest in 'normals' is. And the fact that the national media only seems to mention 'the' Flying Scotsman, 'the' Mallard or 'the' Tornado (sic x 3) when it comes to 'steam trains' obviously has a huge effect.
 
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DarloRich

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Frankly it baffles me... but equally I'm not in denial about quite how high the level of interest in 'normals' is.

there are a lot of silly, entrenched, blinkered "enthusiast" type comments on this thread that completely misunderstand the interest in this locomotive. It is very popular and widely recognised by the general public in a way people interested in trains should celebrate and encourage in a safe way! Tornado is also very popular. again the reasons why are missed here.
 

Deepgreen

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The issue seems to be mainly that of those people who would not normally go anywhere near a railway and either don't understand the rules or don't care because their ilk's actions don't come back to haunt them later (as passengers). It's not exclusively this, of course, but I am getting the impression fro various media reports that it's the casual 'visitors' doing most of the damage.

As a railway photographer myself, I make it a personal (and, to me, obvious) rule never to trespass/transgress and to stop others I see from doing so. A few things mystify me - why is it felt better to be within a few feet of any giant machine for a photo (generally much better from at least a slight distance), why do so many people at stations seem to go to such lengths to try to exclude people from their shots (the railway's 'raison d'etre' is people) and is it a generally-held belief that fencing is there to be scaled (the 'rules are there to be broken' mentality)?

Reluctantly, I have to say that, if it helps to keep heritage workings alive on the national network, I would support banning 60103 (possibly a unique case?) if a combination of timing secrecy and media black-outs doesn't work. As it is, the whole heritage movement is being tarnished by one particular problem. It's a great shame, because the loco should be a great ambassador for railway history and be able to get more people interested in railways.

The wider issue, of course, is society's apparent disregard for low level crime.
 

mpthomson

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They have to pay what they have though. More importantly big fines make big headlines

That isn't what happens, they simply don't get paid or you end up with ludicrous setups like £1.50 a week, which cost far more to administer than they take in, and no-one chases for. You'll have noticed that fines now are given proportional to income.
 

mpthomson

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3. Legislate to match the fine for the crime to the damage this causes to the network.

Serious consequences rather than the £1000 might provide some food for thought to the people considering such selfish behaviour.

To repeat, fining people money they don't have is utterly pointless, that's why it doesn't happen any more. You just end up with fines not being paid or people in prison who shouldn't be as they simply can't pay the fine.
 

modernrail

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It is clear many posters have no idea why members of the public are so attracted to FS.
Are you saying attracted to the extent that any such of unsafe or illegal behaviour is understandable and to be empathised with rather than outright condemned?

It is a steam engine, it is a very beautiful and evocative steam engine, but it is a steam engine.
 

Tetchytyke

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That isn't what happens, they simply don't get paid or you end up with ludicrous setups like £1.50 a week, which cost far more to administer than they take in

Fines do get paid. A deduction can, and is, even made from Universal Credit, and this can be £108 per month.

That said, I'd agree the fining everyone here, there and everywhere isn't the solution. Again it's education. Privatisation stopped schools education- nobody wants to pay for it- and you can really tell.
 
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Mathew S

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Privatisation stopped schools education- nobody wants to pay for it- and you can really tell.
It's a few years since I worked in schools (thank God), though still very much post-privatisation, but it used to be that BTP would come in and do talks about railway safety if schools invited them. Some local authorities (Cheshire West being an example) also provide teaching and resources on the topic, though last I saw they needed updating. Old Northern Rail were also always very good when I wanted to run trips and take groups of kids on the train to Liverpool or Manchester, and would often lend me a member of staff for 10 minutes to do a quick 'this is why you don't play on railways' thing which, to be honest, is all it takes.

That said, I remember an Intercity driver coming into my primary school, when I was maybe nine or ten, and talking pretty graphically about what happens to a person who get hits by a high speed train. Still sticks in my mind even now. Though, I'm not sure they would be allowed to go into that kind of detail thesedays.
 

mmh

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That said, I'd agree the fining everyone here, there and everywhere isn't the solution. Again it's education. Privatisation stopped schools education- nobody wants to pay for it- and you can really tell.

Many of the people who've been pictured were at school long before privatisation - some were possibly at school before nationalisation.
 

Spartacus

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Seems with it's boiler troubles (leaking tubes) it's not going to be attracting masses of attention from on track photographers for a while.
 

JohnMcL7

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As a railway photographer myself, I make it a personal (and, to me, obvious) rule never to trespass/transgress and to stop others I see from doing so. A few things mystify me - why is it felt better to be within a few feet of any giant machine for a photo (generally much better from at least a slight distance), why do so many people at stations seem to go to such lengths to try to exclude people from their shots (the railway's 'raison d'etre' is people) and is it a generally-held belief that fencing is there to be scaled (the 'rules are there to be broken' mentality)?

This is what puzzles me as well as I can't see what advantage going onto the track actually gives, as you say you don't want to be too close to the engine anyway and most places I've been you can still get very close to the track without going over the fence. Some of the best shots I've seen of the Flying Scotsman on this tour have been the ones taken some distance away where they could easily track the train with a longer lens and get a great shot in the scenery, even if you want a good video with the audio of the train you don't want to be too close. After a pain in the neck experience at a classic car show where I'd waited at a good spot only to have people go past the boundary and block my camera entirely, I set up a camera right by the barrier to film the Mayflower but while the footage is ok it's just too close for the size for the train. I went back last night when it was much quieter and stood further back which worked much better, even if it was legal to go onto the railway section I wouldn't have done so.

Looking at the now in famous picture of the two people beside the track I do wonder what type of shot were they trying to get? It's not an exciting shot showing the train head on pretty much and even if they wanted a very close shot like that they could have done so by the fence.
 

Dr_Paul

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To return to the attraction of steam locomotives, I think that there is something about a steam locomotive that is very different from other forms of traction and which is implied in the name of another form of power, the internal combustion engine. A steam locomotive is an extremely visual machine, the moving parts are there to see, unlike a diesel or electric locomotive, where everything is hidden from view. This is especially noticeable with a large express passenger locomotive with its six-foot wheels and the motion plainly in view, moving around, going in and out, etc. Add to that the sight and sound of the rhythmic exhaust, then you have something that is going to attract widespread attention, especially today when such sights are very few and far between. I remember one evening at Wimbledon when the Flying Scotsman appeared on the up Brighton line in a huge cloud of steam from under the bridge: everyone turned to look, this was something special.

That said, the fact that they are so popular way outwith the circles of we rail enthusiasts surely means that it is precisely those who are rail enthusiasts who should be on their best behaviour when a steam-hauled special is running, that they should obey railway staff's instructions and advice and act with a good sense of public duty. It would be an awful irony were the general public's enjoyment of these marvellous machines be ruined as a result of the bad behaviour on the part of a few of those enthusiasts.
 

mpthomson

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Fines do get paid. A deduction can, and is, even made from Universal Credit, and this can be £108 per month.

That said, I'd agree the fining everyone here, there and everywhere isn't the solution. Again it's education. Privatisation stopped schools education- nobody wants to pay for it- and you can really tell.

The amount of fines currently unpaid/overdue from last year is well over £600 million.
 

duffield

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The non-collection of fines might be a bit of a red herring in this case; a lot of fines are levied on poorer people for petty crimes and are difficult to collect as a result. It may well be (pending hard evidence) that the trespassers in the case of the FS may not fit this pattern and may be able to be fined considerable sums and made to pay them. This is the sort of crime that otherwise 'respectable' people might not really regard as a 'proper crime' and so be more likely to commit (e.g. middle class types with a reasonable income are unlikely to shoplift* or steal a wallet, but would perhaps regard speeding as OK).

TLDR: Just because fines are ineffective for many crimes doesn't mean they will be for this one.

If they are not effective there are various steps short of a steam ban which should be taken before considering that option:
1/ Increase the 'insurance premuim' for the FS runs and use the finance for extra police overtime and other security measures.
2/ Restrict the FS to lines where it has run recently to reduce the novelty factor.
3/ Take the FS to be 'uninsurable', i.e. full cost of delays to be paid - this *might* be effectively a ban.
4/ Ban the FS from the mainline apart from (e.g.) ECS moves in the middle of the night.
5/ Restrict FS running in service to (say) Sundays only when the impact on other services will be minimized.

So there's a lot of things that have not been tried before considering a total steam ban.

*Unless they have mental health issues.
And no, i'm *not* saying middle class types are more honest or better people, but they *do* much more to lose and much less to gain from petty crime.
 

Meerkat

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That isn't what happens, they simply don't get paid or you end up with ludicrous setups like £1.50 a week, which cost far more to administer than they take in, and no-one chases for. You'll have noticed that fines now are given proportional to income.

I think you are still totally missing the point of big fines!
It is all about deterrence, deterrence requires publicity, and the media love a big number.
Train spotter gets fined £10,000 would get a lot of press attention. It would never get reported whether or not the fine got paid so that just doesn’t matter.
 

EM2

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It would be an awful irony were the general public's enjoyment of these marvellous machines be ruined as a result of the bad behaviour on the part of a few of those enthusiasts.
But why is it only Flying Scotsman, and to a lesser extent Tornado, that attract this amount of attention? We don't hear about this level of disruption when it's Nunney Castle, or Sir Lamiel, or Galatea, or...you get the idea.
 

Deepgreen

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But why is it only Flying Scotsman, and to a lesser extent Tornado, that attract this amount of attention? We don't hear about this level of disruption when it's Nunney Castle, or Sir Lamiel, or Galatea, or...you get the idea.

'Flying Scotsman' has become embedded in the national psyche because it was the first steam loco to have been documented at 100mph, and its fame stayed with it in the 1960s when it was 'rescued' and went on a minor world tour. Couple this with the fact that the train of the same name ('The Flying Scotsman') became synonymous with express trains in Britain over several decades and we have a name which a lot of people find almost mythical and consequently a huge draw. I suspect the general public react in a similar way to, for example, seeing the Queen in their area.
 

JohnMcL7

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But why is it only Flying Scotsman, and to a lesser extent Tornado, that attract this amount of attention? We don't hear about this level of disruption when it's Nunney Castle, or Sir Lamiel, or Galatea, or...you get the idea.

The Flying Scotsman this time generated a lot of media attention and I was told it was visiting by several non-train people, I've not seen any other locomotives receive so much attention.
 

Deepgreen

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Seems with it's boiler troubles (leaking tubes) it's not going to be attracting masses of attention from on track photographers for a while.
Hmm. Maybe its return to the main line will be accompanied by yet more publicity, etc, etc. BTW, how has a £4.5m rebuild led to leaking tubes so soon?!
 

markindurham

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BTW, how has a £4.5m rebuild led to leaking tubes so soon?!
Because it's not uncommon for the occasional tube to weep - seeing as there as been a dearth of further information, it's quite possible that all that's needed is some attention with the tube expander, once she's cooled down...
 

mpthomson

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I think you are still totally missing the point of big fines!
It is all about deterrence, deterrence requires publicity, and the media love a big number.
Train spotter gets fined £10,000 would get a lot of press attention. It would never get reported whether or not the fine got paid so that just doesn’t matter.

Completely missing the point that making an example of someone in that way is against the principles of the UK justice system, and fines are levied as to the ability to pay, not to satisfy the media or 'make a point'. We don't do 'pour encourager les autres' in this country. You either fine everyone ridiculous amounts of money, which is against the guidelines that courts work to, or fine everyone found guilty in the way they do currently.
 

Meerkat

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Then change the guidelines the courts work to, or Network Rail should do some showpiece civil cases claiming back the delay money.....then coming to an out of court settlement once the necessary headlines had been obtained.
 

underbank

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Then change the guidelines the courts work to, or Network Rail should do some showpiece civil cases claiming back the delay money.....then coming to an out of court settlement once the necessary headlines had been obtained.

No one is going to all that time and expense - if it's deemed necessary, it'll just be banned from railtours on the main line - much simpler and quicker. The courts etc have much more important work to spend their limited time dealing with.
 

jimm

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Meanwhile in Finland....
Just took these pictures and it seems to be a free for all!

There is a bit of difference between being in the vicinity of a locomotive at a standstill where crew and support staff can keep an eye on things (and most of the people there look to be families enjoying a day out) and the antics of some of the people who have been inside the fences on live main lines where express trains are running at high speed, in search of a viewpoint to see or film Flying Scotsman.
 

lord rathmore

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I believe the cause of much of the over-hyped adoration of this one locomotive, which led to all the trespass and delays, is the NRM wanting to justify spending £4million on overhauling it, a ridiculous sum that could have restored two or three of their other locos.
 

pieguyrob

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Wasn't most of that £4 million tax payers money as well. So it could be the media hyping up where your/our taxes have been spent. It does have a physical presence instead of behind closed doors at Whitehall.
 

Rockhopper

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So they still haven’t identified the two chaps in the photo? That’s amazing given the publicity it’s received!
 
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