I've only bothered to check once of late but the only figure I have to hand is 58 cross Nottingham reservations on a Sunday service recently.
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Liverpool Norwich service to be split at Nottingham
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I've only bothered to check once of late but the only figure I have to hand is 58 cross Nottingham reservations on a Sunday service recently.
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dk1
Veteran Member
On this particular route I agree but if going via Crewe then Manchester, Sheffield & all other important calling points are negated. These are all still served on the alternative route that terminates Nottingham but fails to serve the current points inbetween.
dk1
Veteran Member
Around 1000 on an average weekday.
Heaviest 'cross Nottingham' loadings are Friday to Monday with most being somewhere between Manchester and Norwich inclusive from checking tickets, unless there's football or similar on Manchester to Liverpool sees significant passenger change over regardless.
Mostly popular with students and the elderly, again just from my observations.
Killingworth
Established Member
But how many were all the way from Liverpool? Most trains will have no more than 30-40 at most crossing Nottingham. They can have come from any of the stations en route, mostly I'd expect Piccadilly and Sheffield from my own observation. Presumably TOCs have the data to prove how many make the through journeys - although if many use split ticketing it would skew the results.
As I mention above - far fewer long distance passengers travel to/from Warrington/Widnes/Liverpool. There are some but most passengers on that section are local going as far as Manchester or thereabouts.
There are a number of splits - Super Off Peak North west to Nottingham and off peak day Nottingham to East Anglia tickets ensure that.
Weekends including Friday and Monday see much more significant numbers of cross Nottingham travellers as do the summer months with people heading to Great Yarmouth. Tuesday to Thursday there are comparatively few.
I think that removing a 2-4 car train from the Castlefield corridor is a good thing. People from Liverpool travelling east can change at Manchester.
That said, Liverpool to Sheffield is a flow worth protecting, so hopefully it can be served. And maybe the future Hope Valley fast could be a Manchester - Norwich....
That said, Liverpool to Sheffield is a flow worth protecting, so hopefully it can be served. And maybe the future Hope Valley fast could be a Manchester - Norwich....
Killingworth
Established Member
23 trains a day cross Nottingham each Monday- Saturday. (Sundays have no services beyond Peterborough at present.) That would average less than 45 a train for all start and finish points. Quite a few will be from Sheffield and Chesterfield and maybe going to Grantham or Peterborough. Other starting and finishing points are available. However averages can disguise extremes.
dk1
Veteran Member
And every day is different.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
45 per train is about a third of the available capacity considering that only 2 cars go through. And even within a day some trains will have a lot more. All those people will be inconvenienced to some degree, given that they don't change trains now but will have to in the future.
bunnahabhain
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I can't see any North West to Anglia service ever reappearing once we lose this route. Transport for North West want their trains in their little box, just the same as Transport for West Midlands don't want to share their toys either. Hence the East Midlands franchisee expressly forbidden to use Birmingham New Street station despite it obviously making financial sense to run a Lincoln or Grimsby to Birmingham service.
Liverpool South PW/Widnes/Warrington have already just recently lost their other Trans Pennine route through Manchester-Leeds and on to Scarborough. Losing this one as well would leave just the CLC stopper which is already well over subscribed during the peaks.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I think the line would be better with 4tph, running slow one side of Warrington and fast the other.
That said, I do find it interesting that while the Manchester Airport tail is allowed to wag the dog of most of the North West's rail network, Liverpool Airport (which is also very popular and has a better selection of low-costs than Manchester) isn't. Ownership, perhaps?
I forgot about that Northern operated hourly Liverpool-Manchester Airport service as it's nearly always cancelled. Poor replacement for the handy Scarborough service on that line.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
All this talk of Liverpool-Crewe-Norwich strikes me as pie in the sky. It could take over Derby-Crewe but there are no Liverpool-Crewe shuttles so it would have to find some extra capacity on that two-track mixed traffic route - not to mention all the conflicts at Crewe itself. From a patronage point of view Manchester and Sheffield are far more significant than Derby, Stoke and Crewe and passengers between Liverpool and Nottingham or beyond are a far smaller number than those making shorter journeys on that section - or indeed than those who will be inconvenienced by splitting the existing service at Nottingham.
43074
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I don't think that's a pressing need really though... An extra train per hour to Leicester and Peterborough would make more sense just from the point of view of better connections, but to be honest all it needs is the hourly service they currently get to be 3-cars all day. I would agree with a Leicester/Derby to Manchester service though, Leicester to Manchester is the biggest flow from Leicester requiring a change of train.
daodao
Established Member
Lack of any through trains from NW England and Sheffield to Peterborough will make journeys from these places to East Anglia very difficult without multiple changes of train. It will be worse than the situation in the past, when there was at least the North Country Continental and summer Saturday holiday expresses.
One of the problems of the current franchise system has been the disappearance of many previous through long-distance trains. The need to make connections, particularly multiple ones, is off-putting to many potential passengers.
One of the problems of the current franchise system has been the disappearance of many previous through long-distance trains. The need to make connections, particularly multiple ones, is off-putting to many potential passengers.
43074
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Or perhaps its that the market these two trains were there to serve (and are essentially the reason Liverpool to Norwich exists at all) no longer exist in significant numbers to warrant lots of long distance services to serve them? The numbers of rail - sea - rail passengers are a fraction of the size they once were, and parts of Spain and similar holiday destinations are now accessible to all, both in large part due to the budget airlines.
The majority of customers on the route these days are using it to get between Liverpool/Manchester, Sheffield and the East Midlands, and as a means for allowing connections between the Norwich area and ECML destinations at Peterborough, these are the groups which the railway should be focussing on. The days of hoards of people from the Midlands and North West holidaying in Yarmouth or trekking across the country to board a ship at Harwich for the Netherlands are long gone.
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Killingworth
Established Member
Former colleagues of mine worked for the Norwich Union office in Sheffield and used to go for meetings in Norwich. As far as I could tell they preferred connecting at Doncaster and Peterborough to using the direct service. That may have been due to departure times, total journey times or price. I know I recently looked into a journey from Dore to Grantham and outbound was best on the direct service. Return was 3 trains but quicker, more options and cheaper.
With modern travel apps it's much easier to find the best journeys and prices. However we all like reliability. A good option on paper is no good if the trains frequently run very late, are cancelled or are so full it's hard to get aboard. Unfortunately that's not been a strength of the current service, for reasons that have been well rehearsed.
With modern travel apps it's much easier to find the best journeys and prices. However we all like reliability. A good option on paper is no good if the trains frequently run very late, are cancelled or are so full it's hard to get aboard. Unfortunately that's not been a strength of the current service, for reasons that have been well rehearsed.
I hope TPE don’t get the Liverpool - Nottingham service. Living on a line with only TPE services (except a couple during the peaks) they are only ever on time during a blue moon. As I write this my real-time display set to my local station is flashing like a disco with delayed TPE services. I’ve lost count of the times I’ve been on other operator service that have been delayed by TPE.
I for one from my local station have now given up on the train since TPE took over and now use the car for most trips.
Should TPE get the Liverpool - Nottingham service I fear reliability will drop and usage will follow. Plus (in my humble opinion) the more lines TPE don’t use the better it is for the other operators.
I for one from my local station have now given up on the train since TPE took over and now use the car for most trips.
Should TPE get the Liverpool - Nottingham service I fear reliability will drop and usage will follow. Plus (in my humble opinion) the more lines TPE don’t use the better it is for the other operators.
bunnahabhain
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It is possible it will do, as if it kept the current timings it would only had a 15min turnaround in Nottingham and it is the 1Lxx Wastbound that are generally the bad runners, Westbound the 1Rxx don't seem to fare as badly as often coming from the Anglia region but tend to lose the time beyond Nottingham, the only real recovery being either side of Manchester to ensure an on time presentation for the Castlefield Core.
The TPE rolling stock is so inadequate and short forming.
If it goes over to 185 operation, the better acceleration would buy a few minutes back compared to a 158.
Killingworth
Established Member
But they expect to be able to use 185s which manage quicker times Sheffield-Piccadilly than the 158s. When the DfT will make a decision that fits with when any suitable stock is available is the unknown factor just now.
VT 390
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But if the Manchester to Cleethorpes service remains as 185 operation it would make sense to have all Manchester to Sheffield fast services operate using the same stock.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
The Cleethorpes service has less need of high-performance stock than a Nottingham service, so if 170s are best for Nottingham then they are best for Cleethorpes too.
Iskra
Established Member
Could Nottingham-Norwich use short EMT HST's? Would they then be able to use the SP/MU differentials?
The main factor with the HSTs is of course PRM-TSI, and at the rate Wabtec are currently fitting power doors, amongst other requirements, they may not be available in time...
Iskra
Established Member
The EMT franchise is going to have to overcome that hurdle regardless though isn’t it? None of its HST’s are currently compliant and there doesn’t seem to be a plan...
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