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The TaxPayers’ Alliance report on Crossrail 2

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kevin_roche

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The TaxPayers’ Alliance are publishing a new report on the cost of Crossrail 2, and how some key strategic improvements could provide better value for money for passengers and taxpayers.

https://www.globalrailwayreview.com/news/82276/tpa-measures-save11-billion-crossrail-2/

This report has found that £11 billion could be saved with five cost reduction measures:
  1. Cancelling the New Southgate spur could save £5.1 billion.
  2. Rerouting the section between Dalston and Victoria via Clerkenwell instead of Euston St Pancras could save £1.4 billion. Alternatives via Farringdon or City Thameslink are also presented.
  3. Removing the station at Chelsea and rerouting directly between Clapham Junction and Victoria could save £1 billion and offer improved transport benefits.
  4. Rerouting the section between Wimbledon and Clapham Junction directly via Earlsfield instead of Balham could save £2.3 billion and improve journeys.
  5. Building Wimbledon station above ground, reallocating existing platforms and tracks to Crossrail 2 (and tunnelling those instead) could save £1.3 billion.
Some of the suggestions in this report sound good but may break some of the main reasons for building the new tunnel. For example not going via Euston would remove the ability for Crossrail 2 to handle the extra traffic generated by HS2.

What do other forum members think?
 
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mr_jrt

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Oh my, I feel so dirty as I agree with most of their proposals. I'm not sure I'll ever be able to feel clean again! Have they a solution to the problem that removing the Southgate spur means needing to find a depot site on the WAML somewhere?
 

Glenn1969

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Of course, the TPA are anti HS2 so no doubt think there is no need for Crossrail 2 at Euston because they want HS2 abolished
 
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hwl

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https://www.globalrailwayreview.com/news/82276/tpa-measures-save11-billion-crossrail-2/


Some of the suggestions in this report sound good but may break some of the main reasons for building the new tunnel. For example not going via Euston would remove the ability for Crossrail 2 to handle the extra traffic generated by HS2.

What do other forum members think?
It seem like they have just had a good internet search for discussions on CR2 and used those potential cost savings.

1. New Southgate - based on some cost of delaying it and a phase CR2 2 item, so they just suggest cancelling...
4. Going direct Wimbledon - Clapham Jn has a promoter who wants to minimise his journey time by not having any intermediate station (ditto 5.) - TPA have latched on to it as a potential saving, the big issue is that it then doesn't do anything for Northern Line relief which is one of the main aims! (Tooting Broadway for example has NR Fenchurch Street type foot fall.)

Their list of alternatives projects (nothing with Northern line relief as that would be more expensive than CR2!) actually include a cheaper NE spur for CR2 which makes no sense if CR2 isn't built.
 

hwl

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Maybe they would if they were allowed to. TfN hasn't got devolved powers ? Or has it now?
Nothing stopping them, the problems is the local business rates and council taxpayers won't want to see what they pay going up. Merseytravel has has saved and borrowed the majority of the cost of their new rolling stock (they are buying outright rather than leasing)
 

Bald Rick

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Quick scan of the report. It is Gold Standard Crayoning. I almost admire it.

Of course, it’s full of caveats, inaccuracies, erroneous assumptions (some laughably so), and dismisses what would be major problems by basically not mentioning them. Anyone care to work out what would need to happen at Farringdon to deal with the passenger flows of Thameslink, Crossrail, Crossrail 2 the Circle/Met/H&C? Or work out how you can get another big pair of tunnels through Liverpool Street ? Or how a station at Clerkenwell would cost less than half a billion, when the real estate on the proposed station site is worth more than that?

Honestly. Anyone with even the vaguest understanding of transport matters will see it as tomorrow’s chip paper. Actually, tonight’s bog roll.
 

GreatAuk

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The Taxpayers' Alliance is actually a very right wing think tank that is generally against all government expenditure, so I'm more surprised that they haven't just proposed cancelling it completely!

Some of these are quite major changes (e.g. Not going via Euston) which I'd think would substantially impact on the supposed benefits of CR2, as well as requiring a lot of rethinking in general...

It just sounds like more fiddling round the edges of an existing scheme and making single-factor (cost) decisions rather than an actual well thought out plan. What CR2 really needs is a proper rethink about what it's for, and where it fits in a long term strategy for transport in London, and whether all the compromises made to try and partially resolve lots of problems all at once are actually worthwhile. If there was a coherent long term plan it might become apparent that all CR2 will do in its current form is damage the case for other more focused projects and provide an all round sub-optimal outcome.

Then again there doesn't seem to be much likelihood of such a proper plan actually being put together so maybe the Web of compromises that CR2 is is actually the best option....
 

S-Bahn

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The Taxpayers' Alliance is actually a very right wing think tank that is generally against all government expenditure, so I'm more surprised that they haven't just proposed cancelling it completely!

Some of these are quite major changes (e.g. Not going via Euston) which I'd think would substantially impact on the supposed benefits of CR2, as well as requiring a lot of rethinking in general...

It just sounds like more fiddling round the edges of an existing scheme and making single-factor (cost) decisions rather than an actual well thought out plan. What CR2 really needs is a proper rethink about what it's for, and where it fits in a long term strategy for transport in London, and whether all the compromises made to try and partially resolve lots of problems all at once are actually worthwhile. If there was a coherent long term plan it might become apparent that all CR2 will do in its current form is damage the case for other more focused projects and provide an all round sub-optimal outcome.

Then again there doesn't seem to be much likelihood of such a proper plan actually being put together so maybe the Web of compromises that CR2 is is actually the best option....

The Taxpayers' Alliance should be ignored on all subjects. They don't represent normal taxpayers and railway users.
 
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I expect they will be given free rein to express their views on the Today programme completely unchallenged as usual. TaxDodgers Alliance would almost certainly be a more accurate name for them.
 

Mikey C

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They can say what they want, but when making other proposals they have no more credibility than any other "crayonista" really!
 

kevconnor

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The problem with a report of this nature is give it credence by considering the proposals such as avoiding Euston or rerouting to provide Northern line relief will inevitably also affect the business case. losing such benefits also gives ammunition to the argument that CR2 shouldn't be progressed. The alternative problem is not listen to them and they will try and make the argument the railways are not making good use of public funds or providing value for money. It creates a lose/lose situation.
 

Busaholic

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The Taxpayers' Alliance should be ignored on all subjects. They don't represent normal taxpayers and railway users.
For years now I've watched the same representative from the Taxpayers' Alliance appear on 'Question Time' and other BBC programmes, just as Claire Fox from the so-called Institute of Ideas does, although the latter even gets a regular spot as a moraliser on Radio Four's 'Moral Maze', which really should be put out of its misery. In both cases, these two women seem to represent themselves: nobody else from their respective organisations ever gets a look-in, I suspect because there are no others. At least the Taxpayers' Alliance has cobbled together a report, because I've never heard of one from the Institute of Ideas. Both women are right wingers (Fox is standing for the Brexit party in the Euro elections) though Fox pretends to be a revolutionary left winger: just goes to show that the extreme left and right can have 'characters' that are interchangeable.
 

D869

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Without naming names, a considerable number of so-called think tanks produce such shallow thoughts that it would be more accurate to call them think trays.
 

Maurice3000

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I wonder who funds the Tax Payers Alliance.....................
It's no surprise that they suggest to scrap Chelsea station as the Chelsea billionaires don't like Crossrail stopping there. The Taxpayer's Alliance represents the billionaires so that station has to go.
 

geoffk

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Is the only question we should be asking.
They want a low tax society. They have an innocuous-sounding name, a bit like the Constitutional Research Council, a Glasgow-based right-wing Unionist organisation, which has no website, publishes no accounts and does not reveal the names of its donors. Or for that matter the European Research Group (ERG)!
 

Roast Veg

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It's no surprise that they suggest to scrap Chelsea station as the Chelsea billionaires don't like Crossrail stopping there. The Taxpayer's Alliance represents the billionaires so that station has to go.
This was my first and immediate thought. Chelsea musn't have a station, then all the riffraff can get in.
 

boing_uk

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Most TPA “reports” read a lot like some cursory Year 9 students school project, without ANY basis in reality.

One of their other transport reports - something to do with roads - was as equally fallible when engineering (or even common sense) was applied.

They’re usually wittering on about the Town Hall Rich List, so I’m surprised they’ve got time to stick their beaks in to HS2 again, but hey ho.

They are unqualified wibble-peddlers about pretty much anything they talk about.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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When literally the NAME of a group is so blatantly dishonest as Tax-Payers Alliance (TAA would be a better acronym) I don't know why anyone would treat anything they write as remotely believable.
 

si404

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the big issue is that it then doesn't do anything for Northern Line relief which is one of the main aims! (Tooting Broadway for example has NR Fenchurch Street type foot fall.)
When the plans were first out, a sizeable chunk (if not a majority) of informed internet commentators were of the view that a CR2/Northern line interchange in SW London would be a net dump of more passengers onto the Northern line, due to it now becoming the quickest route between Wimbledon and London Bridge (and Bank if the station doesn't keep a Waterloo service).

My own view, after arguing back and forth for a few months, looking at journey times and psychology*, was there'd be a some relief of the Northern line - created by people from Balham/Tooting wanting the West End now taking CR2 rather than the Northern line, and that the number of people changing between lines at Balham/Tooting Broadway would effectively cancel each other out - and probably wouldn't be that many compared to those staying on.

The SWIRL plan that the TPA has clearly borrowed heavily from, borrowed my idea for dealing with this complaint - namely building a branch to the Northern line and diverting the Wimbledon terminators there (the crayons then really come out to serve Wimbledon with those trains, but we'll ignore that). With 10tph branching to Tooting/Balham, you get most of the abstractive effects to the bottom of the Northern line, but you don't get anyone coming off trains from Chessington, Epsom, Shepperton or Hampton Court and adding to Northern line crowding.

*how much time is staying sat in a seat rather than standing worth? how much time is having a cross-platform change, rather than a regular one worth? is spending less time on a train worth it if you have to walk further from TCR/Victoria/Euston than you would from Green Park, Oxford Circus, Leicester Square?
 

Bald Rick

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When the plans were first out, a sizeable chunk (if not a majority) of informed internet commentators were of the view that a CR2/Northern line interchange in SW London would be a net dump of more passengers onto the Northern line, due to it now becoming the quickest route between Wimbledon and London Bridge (and Bank if the station doesn't keep a Waterloo service).

One suspects that the commentators had not been informed by the detailed transport planning models that TfL have.
 
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