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Rail Replacement Services should replace trains as a last resort

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Tetchytyke

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they dont.

There are 4 or 5 class 57's fitted with the right coupling equipment to haul a Pendo. That doesn't seem enough to run any kind of service. That is before we go through the massive pita of getting the two units coupled up!

That's a recent change then?

Still all waffle about why Virgin won't, not can't.
 
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DarloRich

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That's a recent change then?

about 2010 I think!

Still all waffle about why Virgin won't, not can't.

I think the cant is more of a problem than the wont. They cant haul many pendolinos over non electrified route. They cant free up many Voyagers to run alternative services without meaning someone in Bangor has to get a bus.
 

A0wen

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they dont.

There are 4 or 5 class 57's fitted with the right coupling equipment to haul a Pendo. That doesn't seem enough to run any kind of service. That is before we go through the massive pita of getting the two units coupled up!

6 to be exact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_57

However these are the Thunderbirds used for rescuing a failed train. On the basis you'd need to leave 2 available on the southern end of the WCML in case of failure - so Euston and Rugby for the sake of argument - that would leave 4, which as you rightly say is not enough to run a meaningful service, particularly when currently you're looking at 2tph between Crewe and Carlisle.
 

DarloRich

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However these are the Thunderbirds used for rescuing a failed train. On the basis you'd need to leave 2 available on the southern end of the WCML in case of failure - so Euston and Rugby for the sake of argument

indeed - not just a failed Virgin train.
 

30907

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Sloghtly OT: in the days when the WCML was routinely closed (at least for a couple of months at a time) North of Lancaster from Saturday evening till early Sunday afternoon, I recall being surprised to see S and C diversions in the printed timetable one year, after this had stopped being normal. IIRC there were 2 or 3 trains each way (but definitely unbalanced).
Can anyone confirm, and which year (I am thinking a bit over 10 years ago, just before the 2008 upgrade - but time flies)?
 

Skimpot flyer

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I think passengers should get compensation when buses are used. Why should they pay train prices for a bus service? And this would give the operator an incentive to avoid buses.
Your comment implies that the train passenger always pays more than the bus passenger on comparable routes, so should expect to pay less on a RRB.
If you buy an Off-peak return from Brighton to Worthing, it costs £6.50 (£4.80 with a Railcard); the *single* fare on a 700 Stagecoach bus is £4.80!
The train takes 23 minutes, the bus 51 minutes. Be careful if demanding bus prices when RRBs are running !
 

Carlisle

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More to the point was that, in spite of the reduced frequency, both trains were lightly loaded - passengers had voted with their feet and had made alternative arrangements (presumably travelling another day or route) rather than endure longer journey times.
Was that in 2011? If so i think you’ll find by then due to lack of Voyagers and no interest in fitting superior couplings to resume dragging 390s the number of diverted through trains was tiny, with most passengers being actively directed to the replacement busses, it’d probably been a long term decision by the industry of managed decline as a diversionary route, given almost nothing was sent that way during the closure after the Tebay accident and subsequently since TPE begun their Anglo Scottish operation they’ve not used it at all either .
 
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Mag_seven

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It would be interesting to see the Schedule 4 payments the TOC receives compared with what they pay out for RRBs vs the cost of diverting. I suspect they are making a handsome profit by using RBBs as opposed to diverting.
 

Dr Hoo

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It would be interesting to see the Schedule 4 payments the TOC receives compared with what they pay out for RRBs vs the cost of diverting. I suspect they are making a handsome profit by using RBBs as opposed to diverting.
As has been stated before, the whole Schedule 4 regime is designed to be financially neutral. The operators pay an access charge supplement up front and (if the level of engineering work is in line with periodic review expectations) basically get it back in formulaic revenue compensation and bus costs. The rates are re-set for each control period.
I have never seen any evidence that operators make a systematic profit. Do you have any basis for your ‘suspicions’?
 

RT4038

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So, there are insufficient locomotives to drag Pendolinos, no diesel units available without robbing another service, huge training costs to keep staff familiar with the route, and few normal passengers who wish to endure the extended journey times. And still the train enthusiasts want to see conspiracy and profiteering at every turn. Instead of demanding a subsidised enthusiasts trip on these 'unusual' diversionary routes - how about just buying a ticket on a gricers special......
 

Mag_seven

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So, there are insufficient locomotives to drag Pendolinos, no diesel units available without robbing another service, huge training costs to keep staff familiar with the route, and few normal passengers who wish to endure the extended journey times. And still the train enthusiasts want to see conspiracy and profiteering at every turn. Instead of demanding a subsidised enthusiasts trip on these 'unusual' diversionary routes - how about just buying a ticket on a gricers special......

Got nothing to do with what "enthusiasts want". Its got everything with what the rail travelling public want and that is travel by train, not by bus even if that means diversions and extended journey times.
 

Robertj21a

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Got nothing to do with what "enthusiasts want". Its got everything with what the rail travelling public want and that is travel by train, not by bus even if that means diversions and extended journey times.

I think that may be more your own (and train enthusiasts) personal view. It also largely depends on how long the diversion/bustitution takes and the quality of the train vs bus/coach. Over the years I've had some excellent coach trips in place of a rubbish train journey.
 

n37077

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Easter 2019 has been mentioned here a few times. However the work done to keep customers on trains has been roundly ignored. Virgin Trains terminated services at Harrow & Wealdstone on Good Friday and Easter Monday; London Underground enhanced the Bakerloo line frequency to support. There were a multitude of jobs needed doing to make this happen, moving and enhancing staffing through to signage, stopping marks, dispatch arrangements, repairing platform surfaces etc etc etc. All parties involved deserve credit for making this happen (and yes I was one). The alternative was probably a bus from MKC. On the Saturday and Sunday VT loaned Pendolinos to Cross Country to maximise capacity and try to reduce crowding. Not easy in this contractual world. I see no credit for that either.
 

yorksrob

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6 to be exact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_57

However these are the Thunderbirds used for rescuing a failed train. On the basis you'd need to leave 2 available on the southern end of the WCML in case of failure - so Euston and Rugby for the sake of argument - that would leave 4, which as you rightly say is not enough to run a meaningful service, particularly when currently you're looking at 2tph between Crewe and Carlisle.

Since you're probably running a reduced main line service anyway, could you take the risk of running without thunderbirds for a short while.
 

The Planner

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As has been stated before, the whole Schedule 4 regime is designed to be financially neutral. The operators pay an access charge supplement up front and (if the level of engineering work is in line with periodic review expectations) basically get it back in formulaic revenue compensation and bus costs. The rates are re-set for each control period.
I have never seen any evidence that operators make a systematic profit. Do you have any basis for your ‘suspicions’?
Some TOCs have the opportunity to make a lot more than others from it, and I suspect the more work that NR requires to do disruptively will swing it in some TOCs favour.
 

MedwayValiant

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I think that may be more your own (and train enthusiasts) personal view. It also largely depends on how long the diversion/bustitution takes and the quality of the train vs bus/coach. Over the years I've had some excellent coach trips in place of a rubbish train journey.

So have I, but I think we'd all have to accept that it's the less common experience. Even if it were ten times the more common experience, people would still remember the one time when the replacement bus service was a clapped out decker with panels hanging off and a driver who didn't know the way - and most of us have had that latter experience.

The issue of fares on replacement bus services does get raised quite a bit, and it's worth noting that quite a lot of replacement bus services are in practice free - there is no attempt to protect revenue, and quite often a passenger from an intermediate station has no opportunity to buy a ticket even if he would have done. Buuut ... the railway industry's usual explanations of why it is not possible to charge less for a bus don't really work, because it has been done. Was it about five years ago that the Marshlink from Ashford to Hastings was closed for a few months? The replacement bus service which operated then charged half the usual fares throughout.
 

Ianno87

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Since you're probably running a reduced main line service anyway, could you take the risk of running without thunderbirds for a short while.

Not necessarily - in all probability you'd be running a full southern WCML service with a line closure north of Preston.

And if you weren't...that would be likely a 2 track railway south of MK, so even more vulnerable to a failed train requiring rescue.

Besides, I'm not sure the other southern WCML TOCs would take kindly to that same risk...especially once Euston starts to lose platforms for HS2 work.
 

yorksrob

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Not necessarily - in all probability you'd be running a full southern WCML service with a line closure north of Preston.

And if you weren't...that would be likely a 2 track railway south of MK, so even more vulnerable to a failed train requiring rescue.

Besides, I'm not sure the other southern WCML TOCs would take kindly to that same risk...especially once Euston starts to lose platforms for HS2 work.

The other alternative is to run some connecting diesel services from somewhere like Crewe or Preston. Passengers don't like changing trains, but if they have to, let it be onto another train, rather than a bus.
 

A0wen

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The other alternative is to run some connecting diesel services from somewhere like Crewe or Preston. Passengers don't like changing trains, but if they have to, let it be onto another train, rather than a bus.

And so, by some miracle, we come full circle.

Where do you propose to "obtain" these spare diesel units from? The only way would be to sacrifice somebody else's service - North Wales Coast in VTWC's case.
 

yorksrob

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And so, by some miracle, we come full circle.

Where do you propose to "obtain" these spare diesel units from? The only way would be to sacrifice somebody else's service - North Wales Coast in VTWC's case.

Hey, no one forced Virgin to get rid of the Pretendolino.

On a more serious note, Virgin has Voyager services that operate North of Lancaster. Use these.
 

Deafdoggie

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I think the reality is that you can’t please all the people all the time.
If I’m travelling alone with no luggage, give me the faster bus every time.
If I’m laden with luggage and/or children I’d rather a through journey on one train even if slower and longer.
So all things considered we can’t have both. VT are, in effect, diverting their Scotland trains via Manchester. But other closures see RRB. It just depends what is shut and what the options are.
 

Deafdoggie

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about 2010 I think!

2009 saw it down to just one round trip a week (Saturdays) This bravely soldered on till 2012 when all booked 57 drags ended.
It was scheduled for the timetable change, but two weeks before the 57 failed to couple to the 390 at Crewe, so everyone was changed onto a 221. The following week a 221 was booked instead to avoid any further issues. And then the 221s were booked all journeys ever since.
 

A0wen

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Hey, no one forced Virgin to get rid of the Pretendolino.

On a more serious note, Virgin has Voyager services that operate North of Lancaster. Use these.

Unlikely there's enough to cover that - they have 20 Voyagers and 56 Pendos.

Add in the Voyagers usually run as 2 x 5, so for capacity you're looking at 10 available "sets" - put one out for scheduled maintenance, that leaves you 9.

I reckon there's 5 tied up with North Wales - that leaves 4 to cover something else.

If you were looking at Preston - Carlisle via the S&C you'll easily be looking at 3 hrs, so 4 sets might just allow 1 tp 2h.

With Carlisle - Edinburgh and the suggestion of route via Hexham and Newcastle, that's even less likely to work.
 

Ianno87

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If you were looking at Preston - Carlisle via the S&C you'll easily be looking at 3 hrs, so 4 sets might just allow 1 tp 2h.

Which, running as single units, passengers will complain are overcrowded and will prefer to be sitting on a bus instead...
 

Wilts Wanderer

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Diagramming 9 from 10 is approaching 'heroic' levels of availability. 8 from 10 is a more realistic percentage and the 9th becomes a Control Spare if available on a day to day basis.
 

A0wen

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Which, running as single units, passengers will complain are overcrowded and will prefer to be sitting on a bus instead...

No - was assuming they run in pairs - VTWC have 20 Voyagers, hence my comment about 10 "sets" if they run paired.

You'd be able to run more frequently as 5, but likely to be overcrowded. They'd be overcrowded in any case as 1 tp 2h is against a current frequency north of Crewe of roughly 2tph all of which are 9 car minimum.
 

A0wen

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Diagramming 9 from 10 is approaching 'heroic' levels of availability. 8 from 10 is a more realistic percentage and the 9th becomes a Control Spare if available on a day to day basis.

Quite - was just being done to prove the point that there isn't a large amount of spare diesel stock about unused.
 

yorksrob

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Unlikely there's enough to cover that - they have 20 Voyagers and 56 Pendos.

Add in the Voyagers usually run as 2 x 5, so for capacity you're looking at 10 available "sets" - put one out for scheduled maintenance, that leaves you 9.

I reckon there's 5 tied up with North Wales - that leaves 4 to cover something else.

If you were looking at Preston - Carlisle via the S&C you'll easily be looking at 3 hrs, so 4 sets might just allow 1 tp 2h.

With Carlisle - Edinburgh and the suggestion of route via Hexham and Newcastle, that's even less likely to work.

One train per two hours is better than no trains. Have coaches to mop up the rest.
 

yorksrob

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No - was assuming they run in pairs - VTWC have 20 Voyagers, hence my comment about 10 "sets" if they run paired.

You'd be able to run more frequently as 5, but likely to be overcrowded. They'd be overcrowded in any case as 1 tp 2h is against a current frequency north of Crewe of roughly 2tph all of which are 9 car minimum.

But you have to remember that there will likely have been fewer AP sold, and some will have been warned off. And also use the thunderbirds that would otherwise be patrolling the closed line.

Lets face facts. The reason diversionary trains don't run now is because Virgin don't want the hassle/expense of keeping up route knowledge etc.
 
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