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East Midlands franchise won by Abellio

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DanDaDriver

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So, the latest news is EMR will be having 13 LNER HST sets, which have the compliant toilets, to replace their existing fleet of HST’s

Why go to all the bother of repainting and rebranding trains that are circling the scrap heap as it is? Just add the coaches with the compliant toilets to the existing rakes if you must.
 
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43055

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RTT lists an hourly bus link to East Midlands Airport from 0900 to 1700. But how many passengers use it?
It's a 7 seater people carrier. I think it can be booked outside of the times. What would be better is the skylink bus to call which goes along the A453 every half hour daily.
 

yorksrob

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That's all you need to be compliant on a bog front. It's all most modern stock has.

They also have quite nice interiors.

Presumably you only need one, so long as you bump anyone who needs it up to first !

Plus it would mean no more IC70 seats! :D

But we lose our comfortable armchairs in first (and end up with those slidey leather things) ::(:

Why go to all the bother of repainting and rebranding trains that are circling the scrap heap as it is? Just add the coaches with the compliant toilets to the existing rakes if you must.

Yes, that could work and increase capacity at the same time.
 

whhistle

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Virgin WC has been in "direct award" for, what, 7 years now? Doesn't seem to have stopped them delivering significant improvements in that period, keeping their train interiors in good condition and keeping fares competitive.
Brand image is everything to Virgin though.
It's not the same for Stagecoach.

The culture is different on the West Coast.
There is an expectation of full breakfast in First on every train. This has been eroded from the East Mids route... by Stagecoach.

The MML isn't a West/East Coast route. It's a secondary intercity route... think GEML.

There is also very little competition on the MML, so nothing keeping fares low.
 

whhistle

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My preference would actually be for Narborough and Hinckley to be destaffed with a sensible number (as in at least 2 at each station) of TVMs being installed.
Sadly I don't feel your gripes regarding the likes of Hinckley and Narborough are likely to be resolved to your satisfaction, if I was a betting person I would say a closure attempt for the booking offices if not total destaffing is more likely within the next 10 years or so.
Indeed!

Whether the rumours of West Mids taking over the local Leicester to Birmingham route come to any sort of fact means these two stations would become West Midlands stations is another question.
I suspect they'll be de-staffed before that change though.
Stagecoach didn't want to put TVMs in as they wouldn't see a big enough return on the investment.
I'll eat my hat if Abellio didn't mandate putting machines in as part of their bid.

Although I wonder if they'd go the same as Oakham, Mansfield and the like... run by independent companies. Not sure how that works though.
 

mallard

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Brand image is everything to Virgin though.
It's not the same for Stagecoach.

The culture is different on the West Coast.
There is an expectation of full breakfast in First on every train. This has been eroded from the East Mids route... by Stagecoach.

Exactly what I'm saying. Stagecoach have been a mediocre operator that have put very little effort into making their route attractive to passengers.

The MML isn't a West/East Coast route. It's a secondary intercity route... think GEML.

While I agree it's not as "big" as the WCML or the longer-distance ECML routes, it's very comparable to the KX-Leeds route and certainly more "important" than the GEML. Norwich is less than half the size of Nottingham. Ipswich is about a third of the size of Leicester. Sheffield is over 70% of the size of Leeds.

There is also very little competition on the MML, so nothing keeping fares low.

London Midland (as was) and CrossCountry introduced "super-off-peak" fares from London to Derby and Sheffield (routed via their services only; i.e. via the WCML and Derby-Tamworth line). The cheapest ticket from London to Nottingham is "via Grantham". There is definitely some competition. North of Nottingham/Derby and South of Bedford there are multiple operators on the MML with some level of competition with each other.

More importantly, the MML competes with the ECML for a good number of destinations; aside from the direct competition of the infrequent St Pancras - Leeds services, for many places in South Yorkshire, travelling via Sheffield or via Leeds/Doncaster is about equal in journey time. Even for some places in Nottinghamshire and Lincolnshire there is clearly a level of competition. Like I said, I personally don't believe the EMT price hike after the 90% Stagecoach operator took over the ECML was a coincidence.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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More importantly, the MML competes with the ECML for a good number of destinations; aside from the direct competition of the infrequent St Pancras - Leeds services, for many places in South Yorkshire, travelling via Sheffield or via Leeds/Doncaster is about equal in journey time. Even for some places in Nottinghamshire and Lincolnshire there is clearly a level of competition. Like I said, I personally don't believe the EMT price hike after the 90% Stagecoach operator took over the ECML was a coincidence.
In essence, it is the poor folks who are north of Bedford but south of Derby that have little choice.
 

Iskra

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Exactly what I'm saying. Stagecoach have been a mediocre operator that have put very little effort into making their route attractive to passengers.



While I agree it's not as "big" as the WCML or the longer-distance ECML routes, it's very comparable to the KX-Leeds route and certainly more "important" than the GEML. Norwich is less than half the size of Nottingham. Ipswich is about a third of the size of Leicester. Sheffield is over 70% of the size of Leeds.

I don't agree that it's comparable to the Leeds spur service at all. Sheffield might be 70% the size of Leeds, but LNER Leeds trains also act as the railhead for all of West Yorkshire- pop 2.3m and some parts of North Yorkshire too. London-Leeds trains are far busier than London-Sheffield trains. If anything the Leeds route is more important than LNER Newcastle and Edinburgh services.

The MML is a secondary mainline. It will remain that way until it is electrified or has further line speed improvements.
 
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mallard

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Sheffield might be 70% the size of Leeds, but LNER Leeds trains also act as the railhead for all of West Yorkshire- pop 2.3m and some parts of North Yorkshire too. London-Leeds trains are far busier than London-Sheffield trains.

The KX-Leeds service services only Leeds (plus a few other smaller towns like Wakefield, with places like Doncaster and Peterborough there are plenty of other services to choose from). The MML also serves the significant settlements of Nottingham, Leicester and Derby. They serve as railheads for most of Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire and Leicestershire. I'm comparing the entire MML to the KX-Leeds services, not just doing a pointless comparison of Sheffield and Leeds.

The ORR puts the total station usage of Leeds (Entries & Exits + Interchanges) at approximately 33m per year. That includes a great many passengers who won't be using the ECML. A similar total for Nottingham, Derby, Leicester and Sheffield comes out to approximately 28.5m per year (and I suspect a greater proportion of those will be using the MML). Those numbers are, in my opinion, very comparable (which is what I said, I'm not saying the MML is more important than KX-Leeds, just that the two are comparable, i.e. "in the same ballpark").

The MML is a secondary mainline. It will remain that way until it is electrified or has further line speed improvements.

It's in dire need of both of those. Unfortunately, most government ministers would struggle to locate anywhere north of Watford on a fully labelled map, so have consistently undervalued the majority of England.
 

ainsworth74

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I thought they only had one compliant one in each class, which admittedly is one more than the EMT ones, but still a lot of shuffling for one loo.
That's all you need to be compliant on a bog front. It's all most modern stock has.

Worth noting that they do not have compliant first class toilets only compliant standard class toilets.
 

duffield

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Could you link to your source?

We now seem to have three conflicting current claims of what is 'definitely' going to happen before/on 31st December 2019:
- EMT HSTs to have 'some' compliance mods not including doors.
- EMT HSTs to be replaced with compliant LNER HSTs
- All HSTs to be gone by the end of the year replaced with class 180's

But given that all these possibilities have popped up quite recently who knows what else could suddenly appear?

I wonder when there'll be an actual official announcement? 31st December? :E
 

cactustwirly

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We now seem to have three conflicting current claims of what is going to happen:
- EMT HSTs to have 'some' compliance mods not including doors.
- EMT HSTs to be replaced with compliant LNER HSTs
- All HSTs to be gone by the end of the year replaced with class 180's

I wonder twhen there'll be an actual official announcement? 31st December? :E

The LNER HSTs aren't even fully compliant anyway.
Does anyone know if the compliant loo in the LNER HSTs is fitted to the 'right side', ie not blocking the installation of retention tanks
 

NoOnesFool

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Brand image is everything to Virgin though.
It's not the same for Stagecoach.

The culture is different on the West Coast.
There is an expectation of full breakfast in First on every train. This has been eroded from the East Mids route... by Stagecoach.

The MML isn't a West/East Coast route. It's a secondary intercity route... think GEML.

There is also very little competition on the MML, so nothing keeping fares low.
Stagecoach were the ones who introduced breakfast in First Class lounges but it wasn't effective with pax so got discontinued. You can't say that they didn't try. It's not bad considering that someone could get on at Wellingborough, going to London (which many on here argue should be degraded to a Thameslink style service) and receive a full English breakfast, cooked fresh. Also remember that Virgin are part owned by Stagecoach, who will no doubt be the more hands on partner in things, given their knowledge of transport.
 

cactustwirly

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Brand image is everything to Virgin though.
It's not the same for Stagecoach.

The culture is different on the West Coast.
There is an expectation of full breakfast in First on every train. This has been eroded from the East Mids route... by Stagecoach.

The MML isn't a West/East Coast route. It's a secondary intercity route... think GEML.

There is also very little competition on the MML, so nothing keeping fares low.

The MML isn't like the GWML
It's a proper 125mph mainline like the GWML, and deserves a proper intercity service
 

Bletchleyite

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The MML isn't like the GWML
It's a proper 125mph mainline like the GWML, and deserves a proper intercity service

The MML is indeed like the "short journey" GWML services or the East Anglia mainline, i.e. it's an inter-regional service at best and is not true InterCity just because it happens to run at 125mph.
 

cactustwirly

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The MML is indeed like the "short journey" GWML services or the East Anglia mainline, i.e. it's an inter-regional service at best and is not true InterCity just because it happens to run at 125mph.

What's a "true intercity line" then?
It's no different to the WCML Brum, Manchester, Liverpool services, nor the ECML Leeds services
 

Bletchleyite

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What's a "true intercity line" then?

GWML Westcountry services, WCML other than Brum, ECML.

It's no different to the WCML Brum, Manchester, Liverpool services, nor the ECML Leeds services

It's very different to the Manchester and Liverpool services. I'd agree it is similar to the Brums and these are not true IC either - indeed, like the MML, BR branded these ICS (InterCity Shuttle) rather than IC.
 

cactustwirly

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GWML Westcountry services, WCML other than Brum, ECML.



It's very different to the Manchester and Liverpool services. I'd agree it is similar to the Brums and these are not true IC either - indeed, like the MML, BR branded these ICS (InterCity Shuttle) rather than IC.

Why not? Its a similar journey time and distance.
 

DanDaDriver

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The MML is a secondary mainline. It will remain that way until it is electrified or has further line speed improvements.

Given the gradients there’s few places currently where you’re not nearly on full power to keep to linespeed.

Apart from straightening out Wellingborough (God knows how much that would cost if it were even possible) or maybe when they get round to sorting Wigston out, in struggling to think what you could feasibly do for a worthwhile increase.

Barrow on Soar to Sharnbrook is 3 aspect signalling (with some huuuuuuuge mechanical box length sections), upgrading to 4 would probably free up some capacity, but again, at what cost.
 

duffield

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Could you link to your source?

Not my post originally obviously, but I've found a source:
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/speculation-increases-over-use-of-hsts

In particular, this paragraph:
"The Department for Transport has said that some ‘high-quality’ ex-LNER HSTs could be transferred to the new East Midlands Railway franchise won by Abellio (RAIL 877), although this would be a short-term option until new bi-mode trains were introduced from April 2022."

Although I can't find anything on the actual DFT website, I don't suppose Rail Magazine made it up, so I guess it's official.
 

cactustwirly

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Not my post originally obviously, but I've found a source:
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/speculation-increases-over-use-of-hsts

In particular, this paragraph:
"The Department for Transport has said that some ‘high-quality’ ex-LNER HSTs could be transferred to the new East Midlands Railway franchise won by Abellio (RAIL 877), although this would be a short-term option until new bi-mode trains were introduced from April 2022."

Although I can't find anything on the actual DFT website, I don't suppose Rail Magazine made it up, so I guess it's official.

I'd take that story with a large pinch of salt
 

duffield

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I'd take that story with a large pinch of salt

So Rail Magazine have essentially invented what is presented as an official quote from the DfT? Is that the sort of thing they do? I don't know what their reputation is, but it seems like a fairly serious thing to do.

Edit: I've re-read the 'quote' carefully and realized I'd missed that it says 'could' rather than 'would' be transferred, so even if it's a genuine DfT quote, I can see how it 'could' also mean that nothing of the sort is happening!
 

Japan0913

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So, the latest news is EMR will be having 13 LNER HST sets, which have the compliant toilets, to replace their existing fleet of HST’s
Could you link to your source?

Is this?

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/speculation-increases-over-use-of-hsts
Speculation increases over use of HSTs
21/05/2019
・・・・・・
The Department for Transport has said that some ‘high-quality’ ex-LNER HSTs could be transferred to the new East Midlands Railway franchise won by Abellio (RAIL 877), although this would be a short-term option until new bi-mode trains were introduced from April 2022.
 

Bletchleyite

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Intercity Shuttle was a piece of marketing by the Intercity sector intended to highlight the high-frequency links on certain IC routes. Those links were still IC services, with all that implied in terms of service.
What makes you think Intercity Shuttle was something less than InterCity?

Did they have full restaurant service, as other ICs did back then?
 
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