Halton Curve upgrade is on

frodshamfella · 21 May 2019

I picked up a timetable leaflet at Lime Street yesterday. A thing that struck me as odd, was the last train out of Lime Street on a Saturday night was the earliest of the week, 22.20. The night when people go out to see shows , concerts and go out for dinner.

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LNW-GW Joint · 21 May 2019

frodshamfella said:
I picked up a timetable leaflet at Lime Street yesterday. A thing that struck me as odd, was the last train out of Lime Street on a Saturday night was the earliest of the week, 22.20. The night when people go out to see shows , concerts and go out for dinner.

Nevertheless, that Chester service is the last service to Runcorn, LM finish earlier.
It might be something to do with the resignalling works on the route, I don't think they are finished yet.
The WCML also shuts down early on a Saturday.
The last service out to Liverpool South Parkway (CLC route) is at 2338 from Lime St, and 2343 from Central (Merseyrail).
Chester has a Merseyrail service from Lime St up to 2343.

itsonlyme · 21 May 2019

frodshamfella said:
I picked up a timetable leaflet at Lime Street yesterday. A thing that struck me as odd, was the last train out of Lime Street on a Saturday night was the earliest of the week, 22.20. The night when people go out to see shows , concerts and go out for dinner.

Exactly the same for Crewe passengers. Been like that for years since they decided to repaint the Runcorn bridge. Replacement was train Liverpool - Widnes, bus Widnes - Ruincorn, train Runcorn- Crewe. If train from Liverpool was a few minutes late the bus at Widnes had gone. Try and get hold of someone at the then Central Trains at midnight to sort it out. Then a major fight to get my taxi fare from Widnes to Crewe back. After this happened twice I gave up Saturday nights in Liverpool. when the engineering work finished service was never reinstated. Explanation was "insufficient demand". This is one reason why i am so pissed off with the railway these days. At off peak times engineering works seem to be to them much more important than passengers.

frodshamfella · 21 May 2019

LNW-GW Joint said:
Nevertheless, that Chester service is the last service to Runcorn, LM finish earlier.
It might be something to do with the resignalling works on the route, I don't think they are finished yet.
The WCML also shuts down early on a Saturday.
The last service out to Liverpool South Parkway (CLC route) is at 2338 from Lime St, and 2343 from Central (Merseyrail).
Chester has a Merseyrail service from Lime St up to 2343.

weekdays and Sundays its 2323 (2318 on a Sunday) which would be more acceptable, giving you more time after theatre etc.

frodshamfella · 21 May 2019

itsonlyme said:
Exactly the same for Crewe passengers. Been like that for years since they decided to repaint the Runcorn bridge. Replacement was train Liverpool - Widnes, bus Widnes - Runcorn, train Runcorn- Crewe. If train from Liverpool was a few minutes late the bus at Widnes had gone. Try and get hold of someone at the then Central Trains at midnight to sort it out. Then a major fight to get my taxi fare from Widnes to Crewe back. After this happened twice I gave up Saturday nights in Liverpool. when the engineering work finished service was never reinstated. Explanation was "insufficient demand". This is one reason why i am so pissed off with the railway these days. At off peak times engineering works seem to be to them much more important than passengers.

Rubbish, of course there is demand, it's a bit poor. Its better than Lime Street to Acton Bridge which is still too early on a Saturday night.

fowler9 · 21 May 2019

Two 158's operating the service so far today which is nice. Was expecting 150's on every service. That said the Transport For Wales 150's are very pleasant.

frodshamfella · 21 May 2019

fowler9 said:
Two 158's operating the service so far today which is nice. Was expecting 150's on every service. That said the Transport For Wales 150's are very pleasant.

I enjoyed it yesterday, was a very pleasant run, I went on a 150 and back on a 158. Staff were good, informative announcements, they seemed very proud of their new service. Great seeing TFW in Lime Street too, they always should have been there to my mind.

Bovverboy · 21 May 2019

According to RTT, from next Saturday lunchtime to Monday lunchtime only TfW are going to be operating trains between Liverpool South Parkway and Runcorn. West Midlands Trains will be operating buses LSP to Crewe, and Virgin buses Runcorn to Crewe. Northern and Merseyrail are going to be operating normally between Lime Street and South Parkway.
Should do something for patronage..

EDIT: East Midlands Trains are also going to be operating normally between Lime Street and South Parkway.

krus_aragon · 21 May 2019

anamyd said:
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I often get that message when loading a Twitter page with a script blocker (even though the page is whitelisted). It invariably loads the second time, ater reloading the page (F5 / refresh).

frodshamfella · 21 May 2019

Bovverboy said:
According to RTT, from next Saturday lunchtime to Monday lunchtime only TfW are going to be operating trains between Liverpool South Parkway and Runcorn. West Midlands Trains will be operating buses LSP to Crewe, and Virgin buses Runcorn to Crewe. Northern and Merseyrail are going to be operating normally between Lime Street and South Parkway.
Should do something for patronage..

I noticed that, I'm seeing a show on Sunday evening in Liverpool, and a friend who lives near Hartford is going to get on at Frodsham with me.

LNW-GW Joint · 21 May 2019

Bovverboy said:
According to RTT, from next Saturday lunchtime to Monday lunchtime only TfW are going to be operating trains between Liverpool South Parkway and Runcorn. West Midlands Trains will be operating buses LSP to Crewe, and Virgin buses Runcorn to Crewe. Northern and Merseyrail are going to be operating normally between Lime Street and South Parkway.
Should do something for patronage..

As I read it, TfW are running a normal service those days (the only operator Liverpool-Runcorn).
There are hardly any London services either on diversion routes, you have to change in Manchester.
Chester-London services cut back to Crewe also.

Matt_pool · 22 May 2019

On the 20.36 from Lime St to Chester. I'm only going as far as South Parkway.

Guard comes around, show my Merseytravel Trio ticket and was told it's not valid, not even to South Parkway!!!!

Screw that!

Think I need to look into this!

Arriva 175 · 22 May 2019

Bovverboy said:
According to RTT, from next Saturday lunchtime to Monday lunchtime only TfW are going to be operating trains between Liverpool South Parkway and Runcorn. West Midlands Trains will be operating buses LSP to Crewe, and Virgin buses Runcorn to Crewe. Northern and Merseyrail are going to be operating normally between Lime Street and South Parkway.
Should do something for patronage..

EDIT: East Midlands Trains are also going to be operating normally between Lime Street and South Parkway.

This Saturday 25th is Chester Races. The first event day since services started. That will be a real test on capacity and customers boarding the wrong trains on their return home.

Matt_pool · 22 May 2019

Arriva 175 said:
This Saturday 25th is Chester Races. The first event day since services started. That will be a real test on capacity and customers boarding the wrong trains on their return home.

And they also need to get their act togther if TfW aren't going to accept Trio tickets (which I assume will also mean Saverway tickets) between Lime Street and South Parkway.

What use is an extra train each hour between Lime Street and South Parkway if they are going to refuse lots of customers from being able to use it!?

P.S. especially on a day like today when lots of Northern services between Liverpool and Manchester were delayed and/or cancelled!

Phil from Mon · 23 May 2019

Interesting to see that Merseyrail have a full page in today’s Daily Post advertising “The fastest trains from Chester to Liverpool. Every 15 minutes between 7am and 7 pm Monday to Saturday* from platform 7b at Chester station.*Frequency varies at allow other times and on Sundays”. Looks like they are worried about the competition.

Arriva 175 · 23 May 2019

Matt_pool said:
And they also need to get their act togther if TfW aren't going to accept Trio tickets (which I assume will also mean Saverway tickets) between Lime Street and South Parkway.

What use is an extra train each hour between Lime Street and South Parkway if they are going to refuse lots of customers from being able to use it!?

P.S. especially on a day like today when lots of Northern services between Liverpool and Manchester were delayed and/or cancelled!

Trios, Saveaways and Merseytravel passes ARE perfectly valid between Lime St and South Parkway and all the TFW retail staff have been briefed on this. If you have been wrongly charged for a ticket then you are entitled to 100% compensation. Have you complained to TFW?

Djgr · 23 May 2019

Matt_pool said:
And they also need to get their act togther if TfW aren't going to accept Trio tickets (which I assume will also mean Saverway tickets) between Lime Street and South Parkway.

What use is an extra train each hour between Lime Street and South Parkway if they are going to refuse lots of customers from being able to use it!?

P.S. especially on a day like today when lots of Northern services between Liverpool and Manchester were delayed and/or cancelled!

They are (confirmed today) and they have to within the Merseytravel area. Transport for Wales trains are not new to Merseytravel , as they and their predecessors have operated between Bidston and Heswall for many years under the fares regime that applies here.

sw1ller · 23 May 2019

Djgr said:
They are (confirmed today) and they have to within the Merseytravel area. Transport for Wales trains are not new to Merseytravel , as they and their predecessors have operated between Bidston and Heswall for many years under the fares regime that applies here.

Half the guards are new to it though. It’s not an excuse but mistakes may happen.

M28361M · 23 May 2019

Arriva 175 said:
Trios, Saveaways and Merseytravel passes ARE perfectly valid between Lime St and South Parkway and all the TFW retail staff have been briefed on this. If you have been wrongly charged for a ticket then you are entitled to 100% compensation. Have you complained to TFW?

Hopefully it's just one guard who didn't get the memo (when I travelled, the guard correctly announced that Merseytravel tickets could only be used as far as South Parkway). I agree, definitely complain to TFW, and maybe copy in Merseytravel as well.

Djgr · 23 May 2019

Phil from Mon said:
Interesting to see that Merseyrail have a full page in today’s Daily Post advertising “The fastest trains from Chester to Liverpool. Every 15 minutes between 7am and 7 pm Monday to Saturday* from platform 7b at Chester station.*Frequency varies at allow other times and on Sundays”. Looks like they are worried about the competition.

I don't think Merseyrail has much to worry about. Chester to Liverpool and v.v. is also generally (substantially) cheaper via the Wirral line.

I see the market for the TfW trains coming from Frodsham and (to a lesser extent) Helsby into Liverpool Lime Street for existing demand to travel into the "big city" and also traffic to John Lennon Airport from Wales and the borders. Additional traffic will come from the advantage passengers perceive with direct trains (e.g. Llandudno), as and when (or if) they materialise.

frodshamfella · 23 May 2019

Matt_pool said:
And they also need to get their act togther if TfW aren't going to accept Trio tickets (which I assume will also mean Saverway tickets) between Lime Street and South Parkway.

What use is an extra train each hour between Lime Street and South Parkway if they are going to refuse lots of customers from being able to use it!?

P.S. especially on a day like today when lots of Northern services between Liverpool and Manchester were delayed and/or cancelled!

I think when I went on it they announced Merseytravel savaways are not valid. Maybe this will be ironed out in time.

I have to say the time keeping was spot on which was nice as i'm used to Llandudno to Manchester service very often late.

Djgr · 23 May 2019

frodshamfella said:
I think when I went on it they announced Merseytravel savaways are not valid. Maybe this will be ironed out in time.

Yep Saveaways are not valid between Chester and Liverpool South Parkway but are valid between Liverpool South Parkway and Liverpool Lime Street. Saveaways ARE valid from Chester to Liverpool Lime Street via the Wirral Line (and this has been a particular concession for a number of years as Chester to Hooton is in Cheshire).

A bit complex but not quite rocket science.

frodshamfella · 23 May 2019

Djgr said:
Yep Saveaways are not valid between Chester and Liverpool South Parkway but are valid between Liverpool South Parkway and Liverpool Lime Street. Saveaways ARE valid from Chester to Liverpool Lime Street via the Wirral Line (and this has been a particular concession for a number of years as Chester to Hooton is in Cheshire).

A bit complex but not quite rocket science.

I think it would make huge sense if the the Merseytravel area extended to Widnes , maybe Warrington too, plus Runcorn, Frodsham and Helsby linking in with Wirral line at Chester. Anyway just my thoughts on it.

Arriva 175 · 23 May 2019

frodshamfella said:
I think it would make huge sense if the the Merseytravel area extended to Widnes , maybe Warrington too, plus Runcorn, Frodsham and Helsby linking in with Wirral line at Chester. Anyway just my thoughts on it.

I think it would be an utterly unworkable. All of the areas you quoted are in Cheshire and pensioners in Cheshire do not get concessionary rail travel. To extend the Merseytravel area so deep into Cheshire would require a huge rise in Council taxes in Merseyside to pay for it and from what has been in the news recently voters in Halton do not want to be under Steve Rotherhams jurisdiction.

Djgr · 23 May 2019

Arriva 175 said:
I think it would be an utterly unworkable. All of the areas you quoted are in Cheshire and pensioners in Cheshire do not get concessionary rail travel. To extend the Merseytravel area so deep into Cheshire would require a huge rise in Council taxes in Merseyside to pay for it and from what has been in the news recently voters in Halton do not want to be under Steve Rotherhams jurisdiction.

The real anomaly is allowing Merseytravel products to be used (for Merseyrail trains only) between the border and Chester/Ellesmere Port and apart from the obvious benefit to society of getting people out of cars I am not sure what the thinking was nor the financial arrangements. But yes Cheshire residents would need to get their hands in their pockets.

There are a few other interesting anomalies. In particular, all stations on the Borderlands line are often classified as being in Wales and therefore are included in various Welsh ticket offers.

Matt_pool · 23 May 2019

I sent them a message on their Facebook page and they said to email their Customer Relations team!

But yes, I think it was just that one guard who didn't know the rules. I've used that TfW service several times now and the guards have been checking tickets each time. This is something quite new to me because the majority of times I use Northern services the guard never comes around!

frodshamfella · 23 May 2019

Arriva 175 said:
I think it would be an utterly unworkable. All of the areas you quoted are in Cheshire and pensioners in Cheshire do not get concessionary rail travel. To extend the Merseytravel area so deep into Cheshire would require a huge rise in Council taxes in Merseyside to pay for it and from what has been in the news recently voters in Halton do not want to be under Steve Rotherhams jurisdiction.

I don't know about the politics of it all, but what I do know fares and frequencies are often bad in Cheshire in comparison, and really we are not that deep into Cheshire, all areas are skirting the River Mersey.

driver_m · 23 May 2019

Arriva 175 said:
I think it would be an utterly unworkable. All of the areas you quoted are in Cheshire and pensioners in Cheshire do not get concessionary rail travel. To extend the Merseytravel area so deep into Cheshire would require a huge rise in Council taxes in Merseyside to pay for it and from what has been in the news recently voters in Halton do not want to be under Steve Rotherhams jurisdiction.

But Halton is in the LCR region and is overseen by Merseytravel now for its transport policy. So if it is contributing towards the budget, then it really should have concessionary travel to reflect this. I’m a Merseyside taxpayer and if I’m contributing towards Widnes and Runcorn transport, then I should be able to take advantage via Saveaways, etc. Would make sense for Cheshire West to also pool it’s reaources into this as well. Surely the larger the authority, the more power it has for spending if it was part of a Liverpool and Chester city region.

Djgr · 23 May 2019

driver_m said:
But Halton is in the LCR region and is overseen by Merseytravel now for its transport policy. So if it is contributing towards the budget, then it really should have concessionary travel to reflect this. I’m a Merseyside taxpayer and if I’m contributing towards Widnes and Runcorn transport, then I should be able to take advantage via Saveaways, etc. Would make sense for Cheshire West to also pool it’s reaources into this as well. Surely the larger the authority, the more power it has for spending if it was part of a Liverpool and Chester city region.

Indeed and that would take validity out to Runcorn and I think that will happen.

Cheshire West-Well you start to get into politics and I am less convinced that they are bought into a Liverpool-centric world.

driver_m · 23 May 2019

Djgr said:
Indeed and that would take validity out to Runcorn and I think that will happen.

Cheshire West-Well you start to get into politics and I am less convinced that they are bought into a Liverpool-centric world.

There are a lot of us in Merseyside itself who aren’t convinced it’s just a vehicle for Liverpool to hoover up investment. Or for that matter whether it’s had any benefit at all.Not seen much evidence so far in my home town bar a couple of road junctions being altered slightly. Need a full North West or Northern system, not something that typically benefits just Liverpool or Manchester but the whole area.

Don’t get me wrong I’m happy to see the money go on the curve, but I can’t even access Runcorn by public transport without a lot of ticket and transport faffing compared to jumping in a car and going over a toll bridge that I also have to pay to use unlike Halton residents. It could and should be a lot easier than it is now.

Halton Curve upgrade is on

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