• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Why are people opposed to HS2? (And other HS2 discussion)

Status
Not open for further replies.

ivanhoe

Member
Joined
15 Jul 2009
Messages
929
Cancelling HS2 doesn't solve the various pinch points on our rail network. Many cities want their slogans such as Nottingham in 90, or Liverpool in less than 2 hours etc etc etc.
You look at St Pancras and even if you speed up trains, they'll be waiting for space there. You look at Manchester, Stockport and you can see that it is not sustainable even to keep the current timetables.
Infrastructure investment on the scale of HS2 will not be wasted. History has shown us this. Cancelling and then perhaps starting again in 5 to 10 years will meen the investment costs will only rise.Be bold, look beyond HS2 and see how it will be transformative.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
6,232
Location
Torbay
...And the benefits of going twice as fast aren't only for the handful of airline passengers - all relevant intercity passengers get to benefit from it. And most of those city pairs don't have flights between them anyway (eg Birmingham to anywhere but Glasgow and Edinburgh).
Higher speed also allows better utilisation of rolling stock and crew. You can get away with a smaller fleet for a given frequency. Round trip times are reduced so individual trains can make more trips over the day.
 

jfowkes

Member
Joined
20 Jul 2017
Messages
879
It kind of amazes me that pro-HS2 people are told to "think outside the box" when building a new high-speed line is thinking outside the box. Disruptive upgrades and stop-start electrification on the classic network are very much in the box.
 

jayah

On Moderation
Joined
18 Apr 2011
Messages
1,889
1. Yes, HS2 could well be scrapped. Doesn't mean it's the right decision. Personally I wouldn't want to put the future of this country (whether that's transport, NHS, social care or anything else) into the hands of Johnson, Truss or Farage.
2. Your gloating if it is cancelled would be unattractive. The people working on HS2 are trying to do their best to deliver benefit to the country (whether you agree with the project or not).
3. They will come up with a "new world view" as you put it. Of course, it may be delayed, be less effective and have a poorer economic benefit but there we go.
4. Will WCML be full by the opening date of HS2? Almost certainly. (Incidentally, how do you give Knutsford a half-hourly service without sorting out Stockport-Manchester?)
5. HS2 has been subject to huge scrutiny right up to Parliamentary Committee level, Parliamentary Petition etc etc So hardly a lack of evidence.
I look forward to public money being spent on the public's priorities. HS2 was always about politicians showboating with huge sums of money borrowed from future generations.

How do you give Knutsford a half hourly service? The railways in the north need a lot of work. The biggest problem in Manchester is through Oxford Road. A new formation from Ardwick ending at Piccadilly doesn't really fix that despite the tunnel from the Airport costing £bn.
 

jayah

On Moderation
Joined
18 Apr 2011
Messages
1,889
Higher speed also allows better utilisation of rolling stock and crew. You can get away with a smaller fleet for a given frequency. Round trip times are reduced so individual trains can make more trips over the day.
The current lines does little for the 500,000 air passengers a month flying London to Edinburgh / Glasgow.

Climate change may have its controversies but if you had an I shape network most people could get behind emptying the skies and saving a lot of pollution, especially if it meant fewer runways.

But you can't escape the fact it would take realistically £20bn off the cost cutting into HS2 around the M25, just like the French do. Then you still need a solution to Watford costing less than £10bn.
 

jayah

On Moderation
Joined
18 Apr 2011
Messages
1,889
You'll note that I didn't say "no benefit", but "no benefit except" - and then give precisely the one and only benefit you say - the removal of Watford passengers from services to/from beyond the M25.

You have enough arguments against your proposal to rebut without having to make up ones that no one is making!

They are already less busy than the other trains in NW London, and are going to have a 25% increase in capacity by the end of the year at the latest.

The increase to 4tph (when the ongoing introduction of new stock allows - the timetable now has a gap for that 4th train to slot into) isn't driven by PIXC or even giving standees seats, but by the desire to have the magic 'turn-up-and-go' service level at South Hampstead, Kilburn High Road, Headstone Lane and Hatch End (and to a lesser extent stations outside the GLA boundary), ticking London Travelwatch's box. That they didn't bother considering this last time they ordered new trains for the Overground tells you that this really wasn't a pressing matter.

It also solves any future crowding problem - have a look at these 2041 crowding maps: with only committed schemes, with TfL's full strategy. There's literally no difference on the DC line trains, because this year's 25% increase in capacity means there's enough seats that fewer than 1 person per metre squared is standing anywhere on the line in the morning peak, even 22 years later!

I'd suggest that having near zero levels of am peak standees on trains that are designed to maximise standees (and thus capacity) 22 years from now with no upgrade planned beyond the imminent boost to 4tph, is very much proof of the trains being "pretty empty".
Why though - again, this is literally the pair of tracks with the least crowded trains in NW London, and frequency increases can be done relatively easily with the coming of new Bakerloo stock in the mid-2020s (which also increases capacity). The 2018 Mayor's Transport Strategy does propose further increase the frequency (beyond any 2020s increase) on the Bakerloo as an as-yet-uncommitted extension to Lewisham, a move that removes most of the low density standing the 2020s upgrade leaves on the line north of Paddington. We're certainly not talking, north of Queens Park, about anything in the 30tph ballpark though! Especially not at Wembley (as the additional trains from the BLE boost seem to turn at Stonebridge Park, not being particularly needed north of there).
Interesting that the LO are now less busy than other trains despite being half as long? Why add both capacity as well as frequency then? If the MML is also not full at half length either, this case for capacity grows ever weaker. You could get more than 25% from going to a 12 car LM railway but we are told these 'easier' interventions don't solve the capacity problems.

I have described the DC lines as not pulling their weight and you seem to be doing a good job of proving this.
 

PR1Berske

Established Member
Joined
27 Jul 2010
Messages
3,025
I look forward to public money being spent on the public's priorities. HS2 was always about politicians showboating with huge sums of money borrowed from future generations.

How do you give Knutsford a half hourly service? The railways in the north need a lot of work. The biggest problem in Manchester is through Oxford Road. A new formation from Ardwick ending at Piccadilly doesn't really fix that despite the tunnel from the Airport costing £bn.

It's funny you mention Knutsford. I was there on a groundhop on Saturday. Cannot believe that such a wealthy commuter town has just one train an hour to Manchester.

If railway funding was less focused on Euston, places like Knutsford would have two or three trains an hour, not one.

Were I Transport Secretary, I'd shut down HS2 without a single meeting with anybody and ensure places like Knutsford got the funding it deserves.
 

O L Leigh

Established Member
Joined
20 Jan 2006
Messages
5,612
Location
In the cab with the paper
And shifting the fast trains onto their own segregated alignment allows for the increase in frequency at Knutsford and elsewhere without any additional spending. Such is the trickle-down effect.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
It's funny you mention Knutsford. I was there on a groundhop on Saturday. Cannot believe that such a wealthy commuter town has just one train an hour to Manchester.

If railway funding was less focused on Euston, places like Knutsford would have two or three trains an hour, not one.

Were I Transport Secretary, I'd shut down HS2 without a single meeting with anybody and ensure places like Knutsford got the funding it deserves.

You know if HS2 is built in full all the way to Piccadilly, that means Knutsford will be able to have this service because the Manchester-Euston services that are filling the line up between Manchester and Stockport won't be there any more, right?

I love the way your anti-HS2 arguments are actually pro-HS2 arguments.
 

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
8,383
Were I Transport Secretary, I'd shut down HS2 without a single meeting with anybody and ensure places like Knutsford got the funding it deserves.

And how would you provide the additional capacity for the Knutsford service?
 

The Ham

Established Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
10,283
You could get more than 25% from going to a 12 car LM railway but we are told these 'easier' interventions don't solve the capacity problems.

You would gain 23% on Birmingham services in the evening peak (1600-19:0) by going to 12 coach services.

I don't know what the current franchise has committed to doing, but it could well be that most of bit ask of those services could be 12 coaches soon.

Then what do we do?
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
You would gain 23% on Birmingham services in the evening peak (1600-19:0) by going to 12 coach services.

I don't know what the current franchise has committed to doing, but it could well be that most of bit ask of those services could be 12 coaches soon.

Then what do we do?

They're ordering 5 x 24m stock, which as a 5-coach train (the equivalent of a 6-car Desiro) will not have adequate capacity for any peak time service into or out of Euston (hence there being no 4s) would suggest any operated by this stock will be 240m long.
 

The Ham

Established Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
10,283
And how would you provide the additional capacity for the Knutsford service?

I know, by cutting services to Preston.

Would it work? Of course because I say it will and will ignore anyone who says otherwise....
 

Esker-pades

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2015
Messages
3,766
Location
Beds, Bucks, or somewhere else
I look forward to public money being spent on the public's priorities. HS2 was always about politicians showboating with huge sums of money borrowed from future generations.

How do you give Knutsford a half hourly service? The railways in the north need a lot of work. The biggest problem in Manchester is through Oxford Road. A new formation from Ardwick ending at Piccadilly doesn't really fix that despite the tunnel from the Airport costing £bn.
The problems through Oxford Road are distinct from the Piccadilly to Stockport corridor. They are both very problematic from a timetabling perspective. Knutsford is supposed to get a 2nd service per hour, but there isn't the space to get it beyond Altrincham or Stockport.


It's funny you mention Knutsford. I was there on a groundhop on Saturday. Cannot believe that such a wealthy commuter town has just one train an hour to Manchester.

If railway funding was less focused on Euston, places like Knutsford would have two or three trains an hour, not one.

Were I Transport Secretary, I'd shut down HS2 without a single meeting with anybody and ensure places like Knutsford got the funding it deserves.
Knutsford is getting a 2nd train per hour. However, they can't get that 2nd train into Manchester, because there aren't enough paths between Manchester and Stockport. HS2 takes the InterCity services from that corridor, meaning that Knutsford can get 2-3 trains per hour all the way into Manchester. HS2 is literally the solution to Knutsford's poor service, yet it has been missed in the red mist of "it's all about Euston".
 

jayah

On Moderation
Joined
18 Apr 2011
Messages
1,889
You would gain 23% on Birmingham services in the evening peak (1600-19:0) by going to 12 coach services.

I don't know what the current franchise has committed to doing, but it could well be that most of bit ask of those services could be 12 coaches soon.

Then what do we do?
Currently 6/22 LM in the actual peak 1700-1900 from Euston are 12 cars. That is far more than the 25% capacity increase claimed to fix the LO capacity for 20 years.
 

Chester1

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
3,972
This thread is quite funny to watch from a distance. I considered posting Re Knutsford services but realised there was no point.
 

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
It's funny you mention Knutsford. I was there on a groundhop on Saturday. Cannot believe that such a wealthy commuter town has just one train an hour to Manchester.

If railway funding was less focused on Euston, places like Knutsford would have two or three trains an hour, not one.

Were I Transport Secretary, I'd shut down HS2 without a single meeting with anybody and ensure places like Knutsford got the funding it deserves.

Thankfully you never wield that sort if power otherwise we be in far worse trouble!

Were I TransSec, I would ignore fantasy and unproven to work ideas and would green light projects as long as there was a business case to do so.

HS2 including to Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Liverpool, Glasgow and Edinburgh would all go ahead in conjunction with NPR which would unlock capacity for a number of years.

I wouldn’t hold any meetings with HS2 I would just stay that is the deadline and get on with it, no listening to people with ideas that don’t work, no listening to people who want to worsen the network, just get on with it.

Various postponed Electrification schemes such as the Midland Mainline to be finished with infill schemes being finished and yes this includes 3rd rail for the North Downs after which the UK can carry on electrifying the country until only lines with a poor business case for electrifying are left.

But that’s being side tracked, I just want HS2 done before I retire and that’s all routes discussed.
 

liam456

Member
Joined
6 May 2018
Messages
268
Yes, if anything, much like Felix, watching knowledgeable people show how HS2 is best and really only way, time and time again, is as powerful as an argument as just stating the benefits of HS2!
 

Facing Back

Member
Joined
21 May 2019
Messages
900
Yes, if anything, much like Felix, watching knowledgeable people show how HS2 is best and really only way, time and time again, is as powerful as an argument as just stating the benefits of HS2!
I recognise that there are at least 6 sides to every argument (at least this one) and that people's perspectives differ, often on account of their location and the benefits they will get - or the lost opportunity they perceive if the "money was spent elsewhere".

But I fully agree with the. The quality of the arguments presented are very one sided.
 

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
8,383
I know, by cutting services to Preston.

Would it work? Of course because I say it will and will ignore anyone who says otherwise....

Cutting services to Preston would - however - ease things on the Castlefield corridor ...

Just saying.

:D
 

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
8,383
Currently 6/22 LM in the actual peak 1700-1900 from Euston are 12 cars. That is far more than the 25% capacity increase claimed to fix the LO capacity for 20 years.

Assuming it's 16 x 8car and 6 x 12car then switching to 22 x 12car gives a 32% increase. Which, at 2.5% pa, would give you less than 12 years. Which takes us to c.2031. Just before HS2 is completed.

Bingo !
 

The Ham

Established Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
10,283
Currently 6/22 LM in the actual peak 1700-1900 from Euston are 12 cars. That is far more than the 25% capacity increase claimed to fix the LO capacity for 20 years.

Of those 22 services 5 go to Birmingham, and of those 2 are already 12 coach trains.

That is 25% growth in capacity. Given that in the last 9 years for which there's data there's been ~70% growth between London and the West Midlands since 2009 (remember that also includes Chiltern, LNW & Virgin services, so includes ~13 million passengers a year unlike the 25% which only applies to one train company) it doesn't look like a long term solution.

Especially given that going forward for every 10% increase in passengers equals an extra 100 people per direction per hour assuming that the increase is equally distributed over the day/week/year.
 

Andrew1395

Member
Joined
30 Sep 2014
Messages
587
Location
Bushey
There definitely are peak-time standees on the LO services, I don't know where that poster got it from that there weren't.
Just stood all the way on the 17.27 DC to Watford Junction to Bushey. Mind you a fatality at Milton Keynes had left LNR in chaos as it run out of traincrew stuck the wrong side of the incident. In my experience the DC peak services from Euston are full and standing to Stonebridge Park/Wembley Central, but certainly on a normal service are half empty after Carpenders Park. Similarly In the morning peak during term time The DC is full and standing with school children and workers to Watford High Street. It is an important urban railway not easily replaced by enhanced bus services - but maybe by an expensive LRT exploiting connectivity with the Met Line. But why try to replicate something that works well and as said its absorption into the rest of the WCML does nothing to solve any capacity constraints beyond Watford Tunnel(s)
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,540
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Just stood all the way on the 17.27 DC to Watford Junction to Bushey. Mind you a fatality at Milton Keynes had left LNR in chaos as it run out of traincrew stuck the wrong side of the incident. In my experience the DC peak services from Euston are full and standing to Stonebridge Park/Wembley Central, but certainly on a normal service are half empty after Carpenders Park.

That's to be expected. Tring stoppers are also quiet after Kings Langley, and MKC stoppers after typically Hemel/Berko. That doesn't indicate substantial spare capacity, as almost everyone is travelling to/from Euston on the south WCML, and therefore it makes no odds if there's a bit of space further north, as if you can't get on the train at Euston you're not travelling.
 

MarkWi72

Member
Joined
13 Nov 2017
Messages
243
As a Green Party Cllr and railway enthusiast, based in Solihull, I have mixed feelings. However, I have come to go on the side against HS2. I'll explain, briefly.

Chelmsley Wood is the Ward next door to mine and that part of the housing estate is going to be very close to the line at Yorkminster Drive. Yes, there's a NIMBY type of argument at times. However, it is tragic how much of the local woodland has already been lost close to the Brum Business Park off the A452 - trees were cut down in nesting season. There will be huge upheaval around Berkswell/Balsall Common, not least with road realignments and the construction traffic. Residents' groups have been flooding the council about this for at least 5 years.

Personally, I think on one hand it could be exciting, but it is a huge vanity project for London & Westminster, when it isn't needed. And why not all the way through to the Channel/Paris/Brussels?

Use the money to electrify the main lines and connected secondary lines, as I believe capacity has increased in the past decade on WCML. I raised this at 2015 Hustings when local MP Caroline Spelman was defending it - I asked why couldn't the Brum -Rugby section be quadrupled? "Too expensive" came the reply - road bridges had to be kept open etc. Surely this could have been done if the will was present? And this line has hardly any freight now - they go via Nuneaton and Water Orton to or through the West Midlands.

Plus local transport networks could and should be improved - e.g. Midland Metro should be on a par with Manchester's. Ho hum.
 

MarkWi72

Member
Joined
13 Nov 2017
Messages
243
Yes, just caught the freightliner at Berkswell and noticed on Real Time many trains were late, when the announcement was made re fatality at MK. There seems to have been a lot there recently (meaning last 18 months to 2 years).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top