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Crossrail Extensions

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kevin_roche

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Seems some people are planning to extend Crossrail even before it is running.

London City Airport bosses are in talks with Transport for London (TfL) about building a Crossrail station at the airport.

https://www.newcivilengineer.com/la...-tfl-about-crossrail-station/10042626.article

The government has indicated it is open to an extension of the delayed Crossrail project to Ebbsfleet, with £5m committed to help fund preparations for the new route in a “landmark moment” for Bexley and north west Kent.

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...bsfleet-extension-with-5m-feasibility-funding
 
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hwl

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Nothing new
London City have been desperate to get a station for years but don't want to cough up. Twice a year or so they claim they are in talks. (Terry Morgan was Chair of City Airport till late last year bringing a new meaning to talking to yourself!!) Berkeley Group funded a good chunk of Woolwich CR station by comparison.
Ebbsfleet is effectively funding to dust off old plans for Abbey Wood - Gravesend that didn't make it into the final Crossrail bill a decade ago. The route was safeguarded as part of the CR bill.
 

Maurice3000

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I have to say, I always found it mad that Crossrail passes near City Airport but not close enough for a station.

I had always assumed that it was a deliberate up yours from Crossrail to LCY, as if one was a Conservative held DfT and the other a London held mayoral role.
 

hwl

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I have to say, I always found it mad that Crossrail passes near City Airport but not close enough for a station.

I had always assumed that it was a deliberate up yours from Crossrail to LCY, as if one was a Conservative held DfT and the other a London held mayoral role.
An LCY station is effectively too close to Woolwich and Custom House (Excel) (below the ideal 1800m min. intervals) which really slows journey times down if you are extending to Gravesend etc. Running a shuttle bus to Custom House would be far cheaper for the next 50+ years than building a station.
The current owners of City are probably looking at getting a number of projects approved and /or completed to be able to sell it on for a higher price in few years.
 

S-Bahn

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I flew in and out of London City a few times on the short lived Flybe Cardiff service. It's a very convenient airport for business travellers to the City or Canary Wharf and the connecting DLR is good.

I'd imagine the rail operators would however be against improvements and expansions, including a fast link through London and out the other side to Heathrow.

The last thing they would want is air shuttle services from the rest of the UK's major cities into London City, which could have a downward price pressure on train tickets. (It was around £225 for a 2nd class Peak time Cardiff to London return and about £80 for a Flybe at the same times. - and the Flybe did the return trip runway to runway in 35 mins).
 

swt_passenger

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I suspect the only theoretical station position is not exactly straightforward to build. The only suitable straight and level section (to comply with modern standards) seems to be sandwiched between two roads.

I know a site is supposed to be “earmarked” but I doubt it would be easy...
 

cle

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The City Airport situation is unfortunate. It's not even a very busy airport really, but would be useful if it could work. What's worse is that Custom House is on the wrong DLR branch for the airport, so arguably Canary Wharf Crossrail (in other words...Poplar DLR) should be announced as the change for LCY. Otherwise, Canning Town is still the best hub for it.

Ebbsfleet I think is essential. Lots of debate about how (service patterns, quadding, AC/DC...) - I think the more separate the better, but fast to Dartford is not necessarily needed, and it should reach Gravesend too. And include a Northfleet integration/replacement.

I'd argue for it to get to Rochester/Gillingham/Rainham to take over all North Kent service east of Dartford. 4tph fastest (Medway), 4tph semi (Gravesend) and 4tph slow (Dartford)
 

S-Bahn

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The City Airport situation is unfortunate. It's not even a very busy airport really, but would be useful if it could work. What's worse is that Custom House is on the wrong DLR branch for the airport, so arguably Canary Wharf Crossrail (in other words...Poplar DLR) should be announced as the change for LCY. Otherwise, Canning Town is still the best hub for it.

Ebbsfleet I think is essential. Lots of debate about how (service patterns, quadding, AC/DC...) - I think the more separate the better, but fast to Dartford is not necessarily needed, and it should reach Gravesend too. And include a Northfleet integration/replacement.

I'd argue for it to get to Rochester/Gillingham/Rainham to take over all North Kent service east of Dartford. 4tph fastest (Medway), 4tph semi (Gravesend) and 4tph slow (Dartford)

Interesting, although I would at that point argue for Crossrail 3, being a NW to SE line through London to take pressure off SouthEastern Services currently going into the bottleneck of London Bridge, probably going through LB or Bank before intersecting at Tottenham Court Road and heading off in a NW direction towards Wembley and Watford.
 

kevin_roche

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I have to say, I always found it mad that Crossrail passes near City Airport but not close enough for a station.

I suspect the only theoretical station position is not exactly straightforward to build. The only suitable straight and level section (to comply with modern standards) seems to be sandwiched between two roads.

What's worse is that Custom House is on the wrong DLR branch for the airport, so arguably Canary Wharf Crossrail (in other words...Poplar DLR) should be announced as the change for LCY. Otherwise, Canning Town is still the best hub for it.

Looks to me like the ideal place for a station would be under the airport in the Connaught Tunnel. I guess its way too late for that.
 

Maurice3000

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An LCY station is effectively too close to Woolwich and Custom House (Excel) (below the ideal 1800m min. intervals) which really slows journey times down if you are extending to Gravesend etc. Running a shuttle bus to Custom House would be far cheaper for the next 50+ years than building a station.
You're, of course, right about it being technically not that easy. Both Excel and Woolwich warrant their own station and are already close together.

I don't think a bus service would cut it, though. That doesn't fit in with the type of service LCY wants to offer. LCY is a "premium" airport if you will, whereas bus services offer a below average experience. Even budget Stansted doesn't require a bus service. The main reason I avoid flying from Luton is precisely because it's a pain getting to by train.

An ideal solution would probably be some kind of underground people mover between Custom House and London City Airport. Considering the type of area (not very residential, route largely under water) the construction would not be the biggest challenge. The funding will be harder. If you could get LCY to chip in, TfL/DfT to chip in (put it on Oyster and have it terminate at the TfL owned Custom House station and the TfL owned DLR station next to the airport) and Excel to chip in (it would effectively become a conference centre with its own airport) you might get somewhere.

It would then become Custom House (for Excel and London City Airport).
 
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jhy44

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City Airport is a very small airport serving a very small, undiverse group of people (expensive shorthaul flights aimed at the business community, useless for the vast majority of the deprived community of east London)

Whereas the excel centre is a huge conference centre which is the area’s destination of greater importance, probably with a much higher annual visitor number.
That’s why custom house was chosen for the station location over LCY.

It wouldn’t make much economic sense for an additional station to be built, it would be far cheaper for a bus link between LCY and Custom House to be established as someone has already stated, and would be perfectly sufficient too given its small passenger numbers. Would even likely to be cheaper to build a BHX-style light rail link or even a DLR diversion than a full blown Crossrail station.


Many people, myself included, think LCY should be closed anyway. It’s a poor use of valuable land which could be used to build 10,000s of homes that east London desperately needs, and once crossrail opens and provides fast easy links between Heathrow and Canary Wharf; LCY’s raison d’être will be neutralised; further strengthening the case for its closure. This thinking may be shared by those in central and local government too...
 

hwl

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City Airport is a very small airport serving a very small, undiverse group of people (expensive shorthaul flights aimed at the business community, useless for the vast majority of the deprived community of east London)

Whereas the excel centre is a huge conference centre which is the area’s destination of greater importance, probably with a much higher annual visitor number.
That’s why custom house was chosen for the station location over LCY.

It wouldn’t make much economic sense for an additional station to be built, it would be far cheaper for a bus link between LCY and Custom House to be established as someone has already stated, and would be perfectly sufficient too given its small passenger numbers. Would even likely to be cheaper to build a BHX-style light rail link or even a DLR diversion than a full blown Crossrail station.


Many people, myself included, think LCY should be closed anyway. It’s a poor use of valuable land which could be used to build 10,000s of homes that east London desperately needs, and once crossrail opens and provides fast easy links between Heathrow and Canary Wharf; LCY’s raison d’être will be neutralised; further strengthening the case for its closure. This thinking may be shared by those in central and local government too...
With Heathrow not really interested in many more local short haul destinations I firmly believe LCY will be able to end off any threats from Heathrow even after expansion of both. Much of LCY short haul destination overlap is more Gatwick / Stanstead / Luton orientated.
 

edwin_m

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Maybe the Dangleway should be transplanted to link the terminal at City Airport to Custom House? May have a few problems crossing the runway though - perhaps a new station on the surface part of the North Woolwich line would be better.

Another possible Crossrail extension is from Heathrow to Staines.
 

kevin_roche

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There is an interesting analysis of the location which seems to prove there is no suitable space for a station. Does anyone know what the airport are planning to knock down to make some space?

https://www.hydeparknow.uk/2019/05/23/can-a-crossrail-city-airport-station-be-built/

The red area highlights the absolute minimum extent a Crossrail station would need for its 205 metre long trains. Its not enough though because that excludes much of the platforms infrastructure and station buildings, not forgetting the need for access, subways, stairs, ramps accessible lifts etc. Obviously its a designer’s nightmare to try and fit a station into such a constricted space.
 

swt_passenger

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This really isn’t a new debate. I mentioned horizontal and vertical curvature restrictions for new platforms in post #6, because it’s all been highlighted in previous discussions a few years ago.

I suspect they’d have to lose the gradients, ie lower the station and therefore the tracks down to roughly the lower level of the two adjacent portals. But that still wouldn’t remove the horizontal curve.

...and of course many potential designs would almost certainly be unbuildable once the Crossrail Abbey Wood branch was actually in use.
 
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