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Virgin asking for all parts of split tickets to be shown

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TUC

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I’m currently on a Virgin Trains service from Manchester to London. The guard, after referring to only peak time tickets being valid, has asked for any passengers with split tickets to show all of them during the ticket inspection.

Whilst this is fine on one level, it does make me wonder whether this is inviting the opportunity for challenge. Surely what matters is that a passenger has a valid ticket for the leg of their journey they are travelling on at that moment?
 
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ForTheLoveOf

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I’m currently on a Virgin Trains service from Manchester to London. The guard, after referring to only peak time tickets being valid, has asked for any passengers with split tickets to show all of them during the ticket inspection.

Whilst this is fine on one level, it does make me wonder whether this is inviting the opportunity for challenge. Surely what matters is that a passenger has a valid ticket for the leg of their journey they are travelling on at that moment?
If the guard has requested split ticket passengers to show all tickets I don't think it is unreasonable to do this. It can sometimes be confusing to do this if you are travelling through one or more crew changes (e.g. Euston to Glasgow) but if it is the same crew throughout, as it would be for Manchester-London, I think there is nothing wrong with showing all tickets at once.

Virgin really needs to get to grips with the fact that they themselves set Off-Peak fares from Manchester to stations along the line to London that are valid effectively at any time. But I'm not expecting any miracles there.
 

robbeech

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Agreed. Nothing wrong with this. There could be many benefits. If you show a Manchester to Crewe ticket the guard will be expecting you to alight at Crewe. If you don’t then they have wonder why. No doubt there will be people that try to be overcarried.
 

Aictos

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What’s wrong with showing all parts?

I’ve done Birmingham to Peterborough a few times splitting at Oakham and I just show both tickets when tickets are being checked, it’s no big deal.
 

embers25

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Whilst there is nothing wrong in asking, there is nothing wrong with passengers only showing the ticket for the bit they are on and refusing to show the other tickets until they become valid as that way, if the customer decides to change route (due to delays or whim), they are still free to do so without having to explain why the ticket they haven't yet used has been checked. I would never advise any passenger to show all tickets in advance of needing to, even if the guard requested as the guard has every right to ask but absolutely no right to expect the passenger to comply. The usual guard on the 0636 from Exeter to Paddington has an interesting approach to this in that he checks tickets and if he sees tickets to Pewsey (a known splitting point), he then asks if you are splitting there and can he see your onward ticket. If you say yes he'll mark it but if you ask him not to in case you change your mind he won't.
 

TUC

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What’s wrong with showing all parts?

I’ve done Birmingham to Peterborough a few times splitting at Oakham and I just show both tickets when tickets are being checked, it’s no big deal.
I'm not suggesting there is necessarily a problem. I was just trying to think through whether there was an agenda behind it.
 

Aictos

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I'm not suggesting there is necessarily a problem. I was just trying to think through whether there was an agenda behind it.

No agenda but there is a conspiracy theory going on... o_O :lol:
 

tony_mac

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What’s wrong with showing all parts?
Some years ago... after showing a Virgin TM my Liverpool to Lichfield ticket (and was told to change at Stafford), I voluntarily showed my Stafford to London ticket.
He then insisted that I needed to buy a Liverpool to Stafford ticket, and threatened me with BTP when I declined.
Even since then, I only show the part I am asked for!
 

Bletchleyite

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I would always show all tickets relevant to that train anyway, as to do otherwise is just making the guard's life awkward and inviting confrontation when they think (quite reasonably) that you've overtravelled without paying. Why would you not?

On a recent Heart of Wales Line trip with a Trainsplit-engineered split at one of the request stops, a pointless stop would have been made had I not shown them all.
 

Bletchleyite

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Some years ago... after showing a Virgin TM my Liverpool to Lichfield ticket (and was told to change at Stafford), I voluntarily showed my Stafford to London ticket.
He then insisted that I needed to buy a Liverpool to Stafford ticket, and threatened me with BTP when I declined.
Even since then, I only show the part I am asked for!

...though the odd few staff like this really are cruising for the sack. Unless, of course, the Liverpool to Lichfield ticket barred break of journey, in which case he may have been technically correct, even if the staff guidelines are to allow ending short unless doing so is clearly to circumvent a higher fare.
 

tony_mac

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Unless, of course, the Liverpool to Lichfield ticket barred break of journey
Of course it didn't - not that he would have known the details anyway! He even said that I could get off at Stafford and wait an hour for the next train.
Anyway, that was a long time ago, and I wouldn't expect it to happen again - but I prefer to avoid the risk.
 

Aictos

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...though the odd few staff like this really are cruising for the sack. Unless, of course, the Liverpool to Lichfield ticket barred break of journey, in which case he may have been technically correct, even if the staff guidelines are to allow ending short unless doing so is clearly to circumvent a higher fare.

I agree, thankfully I've yet to come across a guard/revenue protection officer or such like who have such a heavy handed approach to split ticketing!

Some tickets though you have to split to get the best value, case in point Birmingham stations to Peterborough is cheaper to split at Oakham and have two separate returns then one return without splitting.
 

Starmill

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I would always show all tickets relevant to that train anyway, as to do otherwise is just making the guard's life awkward and inviting confrontation when they think (quite reasonably) that you've overtravelled without paying. Why would you not?

On a recent Heart of Wales Line trip with a Trainsplit-engineered split at one of the request stops, a pointless stop would have been made had I not shown them all.
If I am on a train like that I will usually point out when the guard comes through 'I am travelling to / I am changing trains at X'. I often have a rover ticket, am breaking my journey or using a combination of tickets for a little trip out on somewhere like the Heart of Wales, though.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Of course it didn't - not that he would have known the details anyway! He even said that I could get off at Stafford and wait an hour for the next train.
Anyway, that was a long time ago, and I wouldn't expect it to happen again - but I prefer to avoid the risk.
Hmm, that's a good point. As a general exception to my rule of showing all tickets at once (where I know it'll be the same guard for the whole of the duration I'm on the train), I obviously won't show all tickets I'm using if I'm stopping short or starting late in a manner that makes use of anomalous tickets!
 
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paddington

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Given the average number of people on most VT services, can guards really remember what tickets people have shown them?

When travelling on a combination of tickets, I always only show the tickets that make my current presence on the train valid. But guards don't seem to remember that I was "supposed" to get off at a certain station, and only ask for new passengers to show tickets. I have observed people taking advantage of this quite blatantly, by "buying short" and then staying on the train, and they don't get challenged by the guard later on.

I have also noticed that on busy trains, especially longer ones, if guards are not in "check every passenger" mode they only check passengers who proactively present tickets. I also seem to be invisible to some guards.

Normally my tickets are in my wallet in my trouser pocket. It's quite a faff to get them out. If I expect to be checked, the tickets are on the table. But sometimes I'm tired and can't be bothered, and unless I've boarded at the first station, the guard often just walks past saying "tickets from ___ please" but ignoring me even though they should have identified me as a new passenger.

The following has happened twice now: I'm sitting by myself at a window seat on a table of 4, then a group of 3 gets on and surrounds me. The guard is handed 3 tickets by one person, they mark them, I am holding my ticket and about to stick my hand out, but the guard just moves on. I and the guy opposite me shrug our shoulders at each other.
 

Randomer

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Personally I have started to only hand over only the relevant ticket for the leg of the journey/splitting point I an on at the time. I've very rarely had arguments about this but why make certain companies life easier if management at some companies wants to restrict the routing guide to there advantage (looking at XC being the culprit here.) On a lot of journeys the split will only be relevant after a crew change anyway.

Also on another journey I had forgotten a service went via Doncaster (XC diversion route knowledge retainer) when buying a split return had it authorised by one guard who hadn't looked at the routing restriction (Not via Doncaster) or chose to give me a pass on it. Crew change and full ticket check took place, new guard noticed ticket was invalid without excess. He asked if I realised it was but accepted previous guard had authorised travel after a brief polite discussion. Helped I suspect by XC clippers having the service head-code on.

Only exceptions being when travelling on a series of advances for a particular service which wouldn't be valid if I changed my mind anyway or in first class when some freebies depend on how long you are staying on the train for having been asked by guard or customer host. It does lead to some bemused looks when presenting 7 tickets and 7 separate reservations which is quite a common journey for me but if they ask....

Although a Crosscountry guard on a 170 last week did say "nice one, through trainsplit?" when presented with the tickets. I did wonder if he was a member here.
 

pedr

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I've never been sure whether to hand over both tickets or not - nor what to do if I've travelled beyond the split point without a ticket check. At the moment I usually hand both over before the split point, and just the current one after it. Having said that on one journey on XC (many years ago) I handed over both, the train manager took them, clipped both, tutted to herself, turned over one ticket and wrote 'Marked in error' on it, and handed them back to me. Without saying anything to me either to 'tell me off' or explain what she was doing - despite this clearly having annoyed her.

I might think about doing this differently if it wasn't a short journey where there's usually only a few minutes between ticket check and the split point, so I'm not likely to change my mind and want to get off!

It's far more of a fuss trying to show multiple tickets using m- and e-tickets though. I guess it might be more efficient to just show the current leg ticket, and if the guard is confused if I'm still there later in the journey, to show a subsequent leg ticket when asked.
 

robbeech

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For regular passengers on regular journeys who have split to save money then I guess it’s up to them. I tend to show both if it seems sensible to.

What I do tend to do is dynamically assess on a case by case basis what is likely to cause the least confusion. Showing several tickets that overlap at stopping points where you’ve got on at somewhere valid, but not marked on any of the tickets is going to cause interesting questions (not necessarily confrontational but could be confusing). In these situations I will lean towards showing the currently valid ticket. If I’m travelling on a combination of season and point to point and the train doesn’t stop I will show both parts, though I would assume that in that scenario you’d be obligated to show both parts of there was nowhere to break your journey before the point the tickets meet.
Sometimes I find it easier to show a ticket / tickets with my intentions. For example on Saturday I held a Worksop to Cleethorpes CDR and boarded the Barton on Humber service on the way back. There’s no point just showing a Cleethorpes to Worksop ticket on that train as the guard will helpfully tell you you're on the wrong train. So a ticket show and a “ I’m changing at Grimsby “ sufficed.
 

Hadders

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I normally show all my tickets. A couple of times when checked on a ‘peak’ service out of Paddington, using an appropriate combination of Off Peak tickets saving me over £100, I’ve been congratulated on my choice of tickets!
 

Polarbear

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It depends on the situation for me. I’ll normally show all tickets, and just say something to the conductor like, “this ticket to A, that ticket from there to B”. Never had any issues doing that.

If I’m on a service where I know there’ll be a crew change, (especially if it’s at the split point), I’ll just show the respective tickets to the respective conductors.
 

Marton

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When I use split tickets and a change I don’t always know where I will change and monitor the services.

Being left on Northallerton station for 55 min is a pain even if it does mean dealt repay.
 

sprunt

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I would always show all tickets relevant to that train anyway, as to do otherwise is just making the guard's life awkward and inviting confrontation when they think (quite reasonably) that you've overtravelled without paying. Why would you not?

I don't see why it should cause confrontation.

Guard: Excuse me sir, was your ticket not to [station]?
Passenger: Yes - I have a different ticket from [station], here you are.
Guard: Thank you sir.

why make certain companies life easier if management at some companies wants to restrict the routing guide to there advantage

Because the guard isn't the management - he hasn't decided to restrict the routes. If you can make his life a bit easier with zero effort, why not?
 

A Challenge

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I don't see why it should cause confrontation.
If said passenger doesn't hold a split ticket, and is instead short faring, it could potentially cause a problem in the same way as any fare evader bring asked to buy a ticket could.
 

sprunt

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If said passenger doesn't hold a split ticket, and is instead short faring, it could potentially cause a problem in the same way as any fare evader bring asked to buy a ticket could.

So you're saying it could cause a confrontation in a scenario completely different from the one being discussed?
 

Randomer

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I don't see why it should cause confrontation.

Because the guard isn't the management - he hasn't decided to restrict the routes. If you can make his life a bit easier with zero effort, why not?

Because to be frank some guards (very very few only 1 in the past year from my personal experience) seem to take affront to valid combinations of tickets seeming to take there use personally. I'm sure some members have encountered guards who have refused to accept valid tickets even when presented with an itinerary proving validity on the service in question.

In some cases having reported there use to management some good ticketing options have had them withdrawn by changing the routing guide to remove historical validity. If TIR are being handed in to management by a guard on tickets that are valid but perhaps unusual (even if in good faith) then reports are getting to management and having an adverse effect on passengers.

My attitude is to reduce confusion and work for the guard where possible e.g. if I know there will be a crew change at Birmingham and I'm travelling past that point why produce tickets that have no validity until after that point. Particularly when I could decide to break my journey there to get food and end up with tickets e.g. Birmingham>Derby stamped as used when in fact I have not started using them yet potentially causing confrontation with a guard on a following service.
 

talltim

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Good point about showing split tickets if they are on your phone. Seems to take some people ages to get the ticket ‘out’ when they only have one, imagine them showing 7!
 

A Challenge

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So you're saying it could cause a confrontation in a scenario completely different from the one being discussed?
The post you quoted was saying that the guard would think you might have been travelling without paying the full fare, and I was making the point that the guard might think there is a risk of you acting up on this situation for the reason given.
 

sprunt

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The post you quoted was saying that the guard would think you might have been travelling without paying the full fare, and I was making the point that the guard might think there is a risk of you acting up on this situation for the reason given.

Right, but that still shouldn't automatically lead to a confrontation. Even if the guard thinks you've overtravelled, his initial approach to you should be polite, and when you show your subsequent ticket then there'd be no escalation.
 
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