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Flight shaming

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ejstubbs

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That's a really interesting point I hadn't really thought about. The only inner city station I can immediately think of with car hire is Manchester Piccadilly, looking at the Google Maps Southampton Central also has one opposite.

Waverley has a Europcar desk in the station, and Alamo, Enterprise and National in New Street car park nearby. At Haymarket, there's Thrifty/Dollar just over the road and along a bit.
 
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Master29

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...And how much did this Norwegian kid chalk up mileage pollution wise? It`s all nonsense. How many holidays do her quite wealthy family incidentally jet off to every year whilst telling us we should all stop flying, burning tyres and buy electric cars etc at prices most cannot afford. It`s just another inquisition with a hidden agenda.
 

Master29

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This issue flares up once every few years, with the plane becoming the mortal enemy of civilisation that must be eliminated, in the eyes of the Guardian and others.

Look, if I didn't like trains and use them I wouldn't be here but I think I speak for a lot of my colleagues (Thames valley based) when I say Manchester is probably our northernmost rail tolerance limit,and a few colleagues will fly there. And my workplace is very much a bastion of Champaign socialism and Guardian-is-the-holy-text and monbiot the anointed prophet so I suspect any flight shaming in this country will be upper middle class 'do as i say not as i do' dinner party nonsense.

Long distance train travel is a real chore in this country, frequently crowded, gouging fares for short notice travel (although it can be a pleasure on an unusual or boutique line off the beaten track e.g Chester/north Wales/Shrewsbury). The environment is a valid concern but the as some posters have indicated the railway in its current form is unlikely to absorb large numbers of people displaced from the air. And as for that disgrace called Crosscountry? I have and will flown to avoid that shower.
Very well written and completely agree. Too much of this don`t get out of your hole and don`t rise above yourself Hifalutin La di da gunner Graham nonsense around keeping us in an accusatory priviledge system for the few and their patsies..
 

ashkeba

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There have been no major new additions to the strategic road network for at least a couple of decades [...]
What's major to you? Ignoring dualling and small bypasses, in the last couple of decades, the M6 Toll, M77, M8 and M80 were completed, parts of the A30, A421, A43, A46 and A505 were replaced with new roads (and they're still building the end of the A421 but that's more of a dualling than the rest), the A14(M) is nearing completion, there's been a new bridge over the Forth, another Thames crossing is planned and I'm sure I've missed some.
 

quantinghome

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What's major to you? Ignoring dualling and small bypasses, in the last couple of decades, the M6 Toll, M77, M8 and M80 were completed, parts of the A30, A421, A43, A46 and A505 were replaced with new roads (and they're still building the end of the A421 but that's more of a dualling than the rest), the A14(M) is nearing completion, there's been a new bridge over the Forth, another Thames crossing is planned and I'm sure I've missed some.

Sure, there have been plenty of new road schemes in the past couple of decades; I never said there weren't. The point is most of these schemes would have barely raised an eyelid in the 1960s and 70s. The fact that the M6 toll was the last 'major' new build motorway scheme, and that the A14(M) is the largest road scheme currently under construction says it all.
 

neilmc

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When I was working, I gave up flying from Manchester to Bristol. Not for environmental reasons, or even cost - the frequency was poor and with the cost and time of getting the airport bus out to Bristol Airport and checking in it didn't save much time overall. Cross Country is and was a vile operator, but choosing the return train which commenced at Bristol and travelling off-peak meant I could always get a seat at not too rip-off a price. However, I wouldn't dream of not flying to a European destination, where the cost is usually much cheaper than an internal flight in the UK. We did once try taking our car on the ferry from Hull to Rotterdam and driving to Budapest and back - never again!

There's another side to flying - just after 9/11 we were scheduled to go to India on a package holiday and wouldn't have dreamed of cancelling, but some did and some airlines chickened out. I have never forgotten a Goan telling me he was standing at the airport perimeter fence anxiously counting the incoming planes from Europe and hoping their season wouldn't be trashed. Many much poorer countries than ours are heavily dependent upon tourists who travel by air, there's really no alternative. Also my little grand-daughter lives in the Middle East and trying to go overland to see her and family would be a massive, time-consuming, unpredictable and expensive endeavour, fortunately the Middle East airlines work out much cheaper per mile than UK travel by air, train or bus so we can get over twice a year.
 

yorksrob

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Very well written and completely agree. Too much of this don`t get out of your hole and don`t rise above yourself Hifalutin La di da gunner Graham nonsense around keeping us in an accusatory priviledge system for the few and their patsies..

For some reason, I read that as "the few and their pasties".
 

yorksrob

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As someone who regularly flies within the UK and Europe on Business, I would more than welcome a change to rail travel as my company will sanction first class rail travel, by biggest obstacle is that most of the companies that I visit are not in town or city centres, and the benefit of flying is that there will always be a car rental hub to get me transport to my eventual destination, I have got round this by taking the train to (for example) Birmingham International, where the car hire compound is just as handy for the train as for the airport. If only some of the main stations had car hire facilities I would use them more.

Funnily enough, Truro does - presumably for the tourist trade.
 

BigCj34

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...And how much did this Norwegian kid chalk up mileage pollution wise? It`s all nonsense. How many holidays do her quite wealthy family incidentally jet off to every year whilst telling us we should all stop flying, burning tyres and buy electric cars etc at prices most cannot afford. It`s just another inquisition with a hidden agenda.

It's really about her, don't think she can take responsibility for what her family does? I think what she's doing is a proof in concept of alternative ways to travel, though doubt she would be spending as much time on the Trans-siberian or cargo ships. Travelling is a good thing, though should be done in a far less polluting way.
 

yorksrob

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I can see why it might not work for business travel, but if you're on holiday anyway, taking a few hours to gaze at the countryside can be delightful.

As it happens, I never fly anywhere, yet my carbon footprint is larger than almost all my car driving, plane flying friends. I suspect this has a lot to do with me having a terraced house all to myself.

Perhaps its time to get shacked up.
 

BigCj34

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I can see why it might not work for business travel, but if you're on holiday anyway, taking a few hours to gaze at the countryside can be delightful.

As it happens, I never fly anywhere, yet my carbon footprint is larger than almost all my car driving, plane flying friends. I suspect this has a lot to do with me having a terraced house all to myself.

Perhaps its time to get shacked up.

How does that even work, do utilities use more CO2 than travelling a lot? Can't control the fact you need heat and electricity anyway, the only other possible way you could reduce your footprint is to go vegan! *ducks for cover*
 

marks87

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Eurostar only serves London, who on earth would go by train to Amsterdam, Brussels, Paris from Manchester for work ? Cost and time dictate otherwise.

I'm doing Dundee - Brussels for work in a couple of months.

Cost is about £100 cheaper than flights from Edinburgh (which doesn't include the cost of getting to the airport) and time is spent working.
 

3141

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Even with a pan European 300km/h network across Europe rail transport would never be affordable enough or quick enough to be able to go pop over to Sofia by train, such cases call for a re-evaluation of our lifestyle and travel priorities. As a society we may need to roll back on city weekend getaways (where overtourism is becoming increasingly detrimental to them) and focus more on quality tourism where one might visit a wider region for a week that includes a city, rather than just two days in a capital. Stag weekends in Europe may have to become a thing of the past!

I think this is a key point. People have wanted to go faster and further whenever the opportunity arose. In the early nineteenth century wealthy young men rode from Southampton to London and back in a day, with several changes of horse on the way. On the day the railway to Exeter opened, Sir Thomas Acland went to the House of Commons that evening to tell MPs that he'd been in Exeter that morning. When I was at Manchester University in the late 50s/early 60, and most trains took about four hours to London, the journey was a major undertaking; but last year I did a day trip from Overton (55 miles SW of London) to Manchester and back. In the 1890s the Czech composer Antonin Dvorak accepted a post at the National Conservatory of Music in New York with the condition that he could have a long holiday each summer, which enabled him to visit his home country. In contrast, when Concorde was flying, didn't David Frost make day trips to New York for business meetings? Stag weekends in European cities are another example. Many of these jaunts are unnecessary, but it can be done, we can afford it, so we do it.

Maybe it's a desire to do something that hasn't previously been possible, or to turn a formerly long or difficult journey into something almost everyday; or perhaps it's a case of boasting that "I've done that and you haven't" or simply "I've got the money to do this and I'm flaunting it". You could increase the cost of flying by imposing a tax, but those who can still afford the fare will still make the trips - like an actress crossing the Atlantic to appear at an environmental rally. Those who can no longer afford them won't say "Oh good, that's benefitting the environment"; they'll get worked up about someone else being able to afford something they can't.

"Fly shaming" is only a part of the story. If we're genuinely concerned about emissions it should be "any unnecessary journey shaming". If we have a holiday from work, do we need to go somewhere away from home? Why do many people go abroad? "A re-evaluation of our lifestyle and travel priorities" probably ought to be fundamental, but not many human beings will be prepared to do it
 

coppercapped

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Except surely almost any air journey is avoidable? You want to visit your family in other-country-x...? It's lovely that you can do it now at little cost (to yourself), but it's unlikely that you actually need to, unless you're donating a kidney to your mum or something. So send them a letter, make a 'phone call, Skype them instead...
Bollocks! If you have family in another country then I suggest you would not write anything so unfeeling.
 

jagardner1984

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I try and reduce my flying. I think the point lots of campaigners make is that it should be a no brainer to take the train. It normally isn’t.

My situation. Live and work in Glasgow. Two baby nieces live down in Surrey. Ideally I would go and see them every month or so. Usually for a couple days off work.

Based on about 10 recent journeys, Skyscanner has found me a flight cheaper than the train (including connections) on 9/10 times.

So I am having to actively choose to spend more money and lose time with the family in order to travel by rail. That is simply wrong. One or other of those things should change to effect a large modal shift.

Outside of London commuter belt, if I want to travel to anywhere that is not central London, I am accepting a time penalty to cross London and then leave on a suburban service. Domestic air travel could be largely killed off by properly interlinking the 6-7 major population centres and international airports by direct high speed rail. We have failed to do this in any strategic way for about 50 years. And so we are where we are.

If we are vaguely serious about resolving climate change it is clear what needs to happen. Which government policy would suggest we are not.
 

Starmill

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I've taken I think six flights in the past decade, all of which were between Great Britian and either Ireland or Continental Europe. Even these concern me if I am totally honest, but land or sea routes simply weren't available at the times I needed to travel. The prices for all of the flights were very low, far lower than travel by High Speed Train ever are. I do think it is important now in the short term to target flights between two airports in Great Britian and try to work towards ending a need for these permanently. It is obviously not a national priority for this to happen, though, and the government refuses to consider spending the money necessary to make that happen.

I don't feel guilty about it because someone in the guardian said I should, I was concerned about the equivalent atmospheric carbon they generated compared to my many long-distance train journeys anyway. I once travelled from Berlin Hbf to Mauldeth Road entirely by electric train in one day, which I was quite impressed with (I would want to ensure it were in 1st class if I were to do it again however, as it took literally the entire day, the bill for which would probably minimum £200 ish, as much as 10 times the price of the short 2 hour flight). I was completely 'flight-free' in 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2018, and didn't need to be told to part of a movement like this to do that. I do however appreciate the positive radical intentions that people have here. I think it's the sort of thing the world needs a bit more of, but it needs to be taken seriously at the highest levels of government that air travel is deeply unsustainable, before us making any personal choices will really have the necessary effect.

Similarly, I don't drive and have no plans to get my own car. I will however use a taxi on occasion, although I try very hard to avoid being the sole taxi passenger. I will also share people's car journeys if I can, or accept lifts offered. This is in contrast to someone I know who will literally refuse to travel by private car or taxi. If a bus service is unavailable, and they cannot cycle, they will just refuse to attend the event!
 
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coppercapped

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This is in contrast to someone I know who will literally refuse to travel by private car or taxi. If a bus service is unavailable, and they cannot cycle, they will just refuse to attend the event!

Many years ago I worked for an American computer manufacturer based in northern California and I was based, and lived, in Paris. I used to have to visit four or five times a year each time staying for 10 days to 2 weeks.

Such an attitude as you describe would have cost me my job. Being virtuous is great if it doesn't cost anything - but it is hypocritical at best to even suggest that others can, should or are able to follow the same path.
 

yorksrob

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How does that even work, do utilities use more CO2 than travelling a lot? Can't control the fact you need heat and electricity anyway, the only other possible way you could reduce your footprint is to go vegan! *ducks for cover*

They will assume a certain amount of carbon to run a house, however if there are two living there, it will be halved between two carbon footprints.
 

Starmill

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Such an attitude as you describe would have cost me my job.
It absolutely would. But that is the point. The person in question has undoubtedly paid a grievously heavy price in social isolation, vastly limited career avenues, and lost productive time generally. But they have judged that as worth it.

I didn't give it as an example to say that other people should do it. I am vegetarian, and I almost always avoid flying and driving. I feel I have already given up much, much more than what most people are willing to even consider with respect to my own personal carbon emissions, while still living a comfortable life in one of the wealthiest countries in the world. I could cut out more and will try to do so in the future, probably by moving over to more expensive food that has a better ecotoxicity rating and takes less atmospheric carbon to produce, and reviewing my arrangements for utilities and cleaning products. I could consider becoming vegan too but this would be a big change for me. But in terms of travel lifestyle there's really nothing else practical to do. Part of me recongises it is a little petulant to refuse to give up some privelages I still enjoy, such as my occasional taxi journey or that one flight to Dublin, just because I have already sacrificed so much more than most people in Britain ever will do. But on the other hand, I am happy with my choices, and I feel that my sacrifices have been worthwhile.
 
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Starmill

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One of the biggest problems I have with long-distance rail travel is that it is just too uncomfortable. First Class is generally a must for any 2-hour flight destination from Britian because it will take you literally all day (or more). Even First Class rail travel from London to Cornwall would, to me, be unacceptably uncomfortable compared to a sensibly priced car. I cannot see myself ever doing a London to Penzance journey on a train ever again. Yet even for such a short journey you can fly from London to Newquay.
 

Clayton

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One of the biggest problems I have with long-distance rail travel is that it is just too uncomfortable. First Class is generally a must for any 2-hour flight destination from Britian because it will take you literally all day (or more). Even First Class rail travel from London to Cornwall would, to me, be unacceptably uncomfortable compared to a sensibly priced car. I cannot see myself ever doing a London to Penzance journey on a train ever again. Yet even for such a short journey you can fly from London to Newquay.
Yet the train is much more comfortable! You can stand up and walk around!
 

yorksrob

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I find an hour in the Great Western Hotel at Exeter helps to break up a London - Penzance journey.
 

Mikey C

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Maybe bands will voluntarily cease doing world tours. The carbon footprint of lugging those enormous stage sets around the world and continually assembling and disassembling them must be horrendous...
 

Bletchleyite

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Yet the train is much more comfortable! You can stand up and walk around!

How is First Class rail less comfortable than a "sensibly priced car"? Unless you're rich, and a BMW 5 series or a Merc is "sensibly priced"? I do agree about Standard, though, and really trains doing these journeys need to be like XC HSTs, not 22x.
 

Bletchleyite

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Maybe bands will voluntarily cease doing world tours. The carbon footprint of lugging those enormous stage sets around the world and continually assembling and disassembling them must be horrendous...

The big issue with flights generally is the length of journey. A flight emits about as much carbon as if each passenger had driven an average family car. The problem is that you don't drive an average family car 2000+ miles.

Really, people will need to rein in their travel to be more like 1990s levels. That was a sensible level - most people would still travel, but you'd only go abroad once a year if that.
 

samuelmorris

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How is First Class rail less comfortable than a "sensibly priced car"? Unless you're rich, and a BMW 5 series or a Merc is "sensibly priced"? I do agree about Standard, though, and really trains doing these journeys need to be like XC HSTs, not 22x.
To be fair, first class on certain stock is actually pretty uncomfortable.
 

Wombat

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As it happens, I never fly anywhere, yet my carbon footprint is larger than almost all my car driving, plane flying friends. I suspect this has a lot to do with me having a terraced house all to myself.

Perhaps its time to get shacked up.
Better yet, remain unshacked and don't have any kids (assuming of course that you don't have them already). You can then pretty much do whatever you want and your carbon footprint will be relatively tiny.
 
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