It is not clear but the plan seems to be to grant derogations for the doors (and possibly toilets) but do the other PRM work. That wouldn't be acceptable as a long term measure. HST door replacements are proving extremely difficult, which no doubt means costly. If a partial derogation is granted for 2-3 years for use on the MML then there is no business case for doing the doors when Wabetc have the capacity, they will just be scrapped once the partial derogation expires.
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Liverpool Norwich service to be split at Nottingham
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It is not clear but the plan seems to be to grant derogations for the doors (and possibly toilets) but do the other PRM work. That wouldn't be acceptable as a long term measure. HST door replacements are proving extremely difficult, which no doubt means costly. If a partial derogation is granted for 2-3 years for use on the MML then there is no business case for doing the doors when Wabetc have the capacity, they will just be scrapped once the partial derogation expires.
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Killingworth
Established Member
It's only semantics to us, but the term derogation isn't used by EMT when discussing this. I was firmly corrected and told there would be dispensations to continue using non-compliant rolling stock until new is ready As the DfT have delayed the refranchising and cancelled the electrification plans it was hard for any bid team to know what the stock position would be on handover day, and thereafter.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
No, HSTs can't use those differentials.
All 22? Liverpool-Nottingham should only require 12 rostered units + spares.
Killingworth
Established Member
But some are required to make the South Pennine Airport-Cleethorpes service up to 6 cars as has been promised for the last two years. 5th consecutive journey yesterday when I had to stand despite having a reserved seat.
No they are not required to do that. The delay to 6 coach services is entirely due to the delay in introducing Mark V sets and 802s. The commitment to double units only applies to the Airport-Sheffield section and therefore only requires 3 extra 185s. If half a dozen new units were in service then TPE could have met the South TPE and WCML commitments already.
Bevan Price
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In fact the Railway Performance Society fastest recorded times between Stockport & Sheffield are (each way) by Class 158s, not 185s.
dk1
Veteran Member
Interesting to read in the MR magazine out today that it is likely to become Norwich-Matlock hourly. The Newark Castle 'stopper' instead running on to Crewe restoring a long lost & missed through service from Nottingham.
Yes 22, because from Dec there will be more 6 car sets booked.
This will be because of the PSR40 coming out of Cowburn tunnel (on the UP) due to the weight of the units and landslip repair work carried out years ago, something that should be addressed with the HV capacity scheme. Also because of the SP differentials and the pathing through Stockport and onwards to Picc; EMT use the Fast while TPE use the slow line - generally, so the approach into Stockport is choked.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
They say it doubles the EMR service between Derby and Nottingham, which is true, but not as good as it sounds as the total service only increases from 3TPH to 4TPH. The Leicester-Lincoln is extended to Grimsby.
Bevan Price
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Is it hoped that the Hope Valley upgrade will also eliminate the need for SP differential speed limits?
Jorge Da Silva
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I can’t find the issue! When is it available online?
Jorge Da Silva
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The DfT website suggested it would be Nottingham-Grimsby and Leicester to Nottingham but glad to here it will be Leicester-Grimsby Via Lincoln
43074
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I was very sceptical when the franchise was announced and it sounded like there would be 3 EMR and 2 XC between Nottingham and Derby so this sounds much more realistic and achievable. Seeing Norwich to Matlock services will take some getting used to though, clearly this is dictated by operational rather than commercial considerations. Slightly worried about the robustness of turnarounds at Matlock given the single line from Ambergate Jn too...
Killingworth
Established Member
I'm not surprised. I've been doing some work in the woods above Dore West Junction recently and can hear the relative performances of 150, 158 and 185s.
185s have a throaty roar as they accelerate away west, 158s are quieter and 150s seem to be coasting after the stop at Dore & Totley. Coming east all are coasting downhill towards the curve into and through the station.
The 150 makes the least rail noise across the junction. The 185 sets the rails twanging and clatters across, presumably caused by the greater weight which restricts their allowed top speed. 142s wheel base squeals round the curve in either direction with that distinctive engine noise on top.
Even through the trees it's very easy to tell which service is which from the track and engine sounds.
However, the shortest timetabled journey times are by TPE.
Killingworth
Established Member
As far as I know the specific Hope Valley Capacity Scheme is limited to the Bamford loop, the Dore chord and redoubling through Dore & Totley Station. What has been added into the scheme planning is extending the length of the Heeley loop. Signalling control from Earles Sidings up to Dore West Junction will all fall under York instead of Manchester when the scheme is complete.
There is vague talk of other improvements but they seem to need further impetus, possibly applied by TfN!
Who knows? You'll have to wait and see.
I think they've committed to double 185s on the Hull services too...
I think they need something like this rostered:
Piccadilly-Hull (doubles) - 10 units
Airport-Cleethorpes (double units between Airport and Sheffield) - 9 units
Piccadilly-Leeds stopper (single) - 4 units.
That would leave 6 out of 29 for spares and allow the stopper to be doubles up when sufficient units are available.
If they want to keep all 22 of the other 185s then 12 would be for Liverpool-Nottingham. If turnaround times for the Hull service where increased, the stopper doubled and Cleethorpes-Sheffield doubled then that would be approximately 44 units rostered and 7 spare. I would like to see that level of extra capacity compared with the franchise agreement!
TheBigD
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Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes requires 7 units. Doubling up between Manchester Airport and Sheffield requires another 4, meaning 11 units in total.
Killingworth
Established Member
Always assuming there's platform space to take them all. That's not necessarily going to be possible at the Airport, Piccadilly or Sheffield with so many being delayed. I note Barnetby was recently extended to take 6 cars. Does that suggest at least a few more may be expected to run to Cleethorpes with consequent need for more units?
During the recent TPE "TweetTheManager" they said:
"Nearly all services between Manchester Airport and Cleethorpes will become 6 cars by the start of 2020. Some of the busiest services may be strengthened sooner."
"The majority of Manchester - Cleethorpes services will be 6 car by 2020!"
Jorge Da Silva
Established Member
Welcomed news. It gets busy from Scunthorpe to Doncaster and Sheffield. Sheffield to Manchester is very busy as well.
Thanks for that information.
Yes, as far as I'm aware the plan is to run them through to Cleethorpes. 0626 Cleethorpes to Piccadilly and 1619 Piccadilly to Cleethorpes should be the next to go over to 6 car operation, but that's reliant on the new trains coming in as to when it happens.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Good. Should have been the case by 2000, not 2020.
Since the timetable change the announcements at Sheffield for the 0808 to Manchester (which is the 0626 Cleethorpes-Airport) have been saying that this service will split at Piccadilly, with part of the train terminating at Piccadilly and part of it continuing to the Airport. Since it's still been a 3 coach 185 I assume this hasn't actually happened (though I've not actually stuck around to check) but between that and the phrasing of your post, I take it that is the plan when they do go to 6 coaches?
(Amusingly these announcements have been saying that the *rear* coaches will terminate at Piccadilly, which of course wouldn't work at all...)
Jorge Da Silva
Established Member
Is Habrough capable of taking 6 coaches? Do they fit on the platform?
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