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Northern timetable changes May 2019

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61653 HTAFC

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There are more examples like that, e.g. Stockport to Bolton, two an hour (as required in the franchise agreement) but less than ten minutes apart in both directions.
That's quite a waste of capacity through the dreaded Castlefield corridor! Though as central Manchester is in the middle that'll be where the majority of folk will be heading. Still makes the second service rather pointless I agree. Also rather makes a mockery of the franchise agreement, meeting it on paper only. :rolleyes:
 
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WatcherZero

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The franchise agreement specified 16 services daily from the Airport to Lancaster via Wigan North Western and Preston. By my count the current timetable provides, from July, 15 to Lancaster, of which 14 call at Wigan. This includes the 0522, which you did not mention.

I do not know the reasons for these non-compliances, but I presume Northern has agreed them with TfN/DfT.

Some are linked to introduction of new rolling stock which has been delayed.

They have also been given a derogation due to lack of staff working Sundays to cancel 90 services a week where there is an alternative at least hourly equivalent on the following three routes from 31st March until June, and now that derogation has been extended until 9th September.
 Wigan North Western to Liverpool (served by Blackpool Nth – Liverpool)
 Manchester Piccadilly to Hazel Grove (served by Buxton)
 Wigan to Manchester Victoria via Atherton (served by Southport)
 

Kite159

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The movements at Castleford to accommodate the Huddersfield service seem rather convoluted... after arrival, the crews change ends and move out along the Pontefract-bound curve to free the platform for the Leeds to Sheffield service. The crew changes ends again and comes back to the platform to start the return journey, where they must change ends again. Presumably the signalling doesn't allow the unit to move out towards York, which would mean the crew only having to change ends once rather than three times.

Wasn't there an idea at some-stage that those Castleford terminators would extend to York via Sherburn & Church Fenton?
 

Glenn1969

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Would that not depend on whether Platform 2 at Castleford is available for passengers? I do think it would be a good idea
 

geoffk

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Some are linked to introduction of new rolling stock which has been delayed.

They have also been given a derogation due to lack of staff working Sundays to cancel 90 services a week where there is an alternative at least hourly equivalent on the following three routes from 31st March until June, and now that derogation has been extended until 9th September.
 Wigan North Western to Liverpool (served by Blackpool Nth – Liverpool)
 Manchester Piccadilly to Hazel Grove (served by Buxton)
 Wigan to Manchester Victoria via Atherton (served by Southport)
I hope this derogation was made conditional on Northern negotiating a solution to the Sunday working arrangements.
 

Greybeard33

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That's quite a waste of capacity through the dreaded Castlefield corridor! Though as central Manchester is in the middle that'll be where the majority of folk will be heading. Still makes the second service rather pointless I agree. Also rather makes a mockery of the franchise agreement, meeting it on paper only. :rolleyes:
The two services in question are Blackpool North - Hazel Grove and Southport/Wigan - Alderley Edge. So they serve different markets at either end.

The alternative would be to try to squeeze one of them through Victoria instead of the Castlefield corridor - out of the frying pan into the fire!
 
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Some are linked to introduction of new rolling stock which has been delayed.

They have also been given a derogation due to lack of staff working Sundays to cancel 90 services a week where there is an alternative at least hourly equivalent on the following three routes from 31st March until June, and now that derogation has been extended until 9th September.
 Wigan North Western to Liverpool (served by Blackpool Nth – Liverpool)
 Manchester Piccadilly to Hazel Grove (served by Buxton)
 Wigan to Manchester Victoria via Atherton (served by Southport)
Thanks for this - I did wonder why the Wigan - Liverpool & the Atherton lines had been given a reduced service in the latest timetable.
 

geoffk

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The two services in question are Blackpool North - Hazel Grove and Southport/Wigan - Alderley Edge. So they serve different markets at either end.

The alternative would be to try to squeeze one of them through Victoria instead of the Castlefield corridor - out of the frying pan into the fire!
Yes, I wasn't suggesting there was an easy solution. Even if was possible to move one of these trains by half an hour, service intervals would be made worse somewhere else, e.g. between Stockport and Alderley Edge/Hazel Grove or Wigan - Bolton.
 

geoffk

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Wasn't there an idea at some-stage that those Castleford terminators would extend to York via Sherburn & Church Fenton?
This could relieve pressure on TPE. Platform 2 at Castleford would have to be reinstated. I think there is a subway under the line which might remove the need for an accessible footbridge - anyone know?
 

61653 HTAFC

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Wasn't there an idea at some-stage that those Castleford terminators would extend to York via Sherburn & Church Fenton?
When the Huddersfield to Cas service was announced, there were many on here (myself included) who suggested extending to York. I don't think there's been anything official though.

Would that not depend on whether Platform 2 at Castleford is available for passengers? I do think it would be a good idea
Extending to York would require a second platform at Castleford (or a crossover north of the station, but sorting the platform would probably be cheaper) but my query was just a thought about smoothing out the turnaround. The guard on the service said it was a pain in the neck having to change ends three times, but she also didn't know where the line beyond Castleford went... so I assume it isn't in Northern's required route knowledge. That may even be one of the reasons the turnaround is performed the way it is.

I imagine being able to just pull a few coach lengths towards York (with permissive working to allow the Sheffield to reverse in the platform) would be much easier for crews.

This could relieve pressure on TPE. Platform 2 at Castleford would have to be reinstated. I think there is a subway under the line which might remove the need for an accessible footbridge - anyone know?
There's a subway but it isn't particularly pleasant. It's also a bit remote from the platforms now.
 

geoffk

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When the Huddersfield to Cas service was announced, there were many on here (myself included) who suggested extending to York. I don't think there's been anything official though.


Extending to York would require a second platform at Castleford (or a crossover north of the station, but sorting the platform would probably be cheaper) but my query was just a thought about smoothing out the turnaround. The guard on the service said it was a pain in the neck having to change ends three times, but she also didn't know where the line beyond Castleford went... so I assume it isn't in Northern's required route knowledge. That may even be one of the reasons the turnaround is performed the way it is.

I imagine being able to just pull a few coach lengths towards York (with permissive working to allow the Sheffield to reverse in the platform) would be much easier for crews.

There's a subway but it isn't particularly pleasant. It's also a bit remote from the platforms now.
Thanks. TPE send some late night trains this way.
 

Paul_10

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I'm sure there is an explanation to this but I have no idea so can anyone tell me why 2C71 1439 Lancaster to Morecambe skips Bare Lane on the way to Morecambe but stops there on the return journey?

I'm not entirely sure why this service is even running as there is a train to Morecambe(which comes from Leeds) around 25 mins earlier so it will most likely have barely any passengers on it, just seems wasted mileage too me?
 

Ianno87

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I'm sure there is an explanation to this but I have no idea so can anyone tell me why 2C71 1439 Lancaster to Morecambe skips Bare Lane on the way to Morecambe but stops there on the return journey?

I'm not entirely sure why this service is even running as there is a train to Morecambe(which comes from Leeds) around 25 mins earlier so it will most likely have barely any passengers on it, just seems wasted mileage too me?

The two things are related - the 1439 has to wait for the return of the previous train at Morecambe South Jn. Must then skip Bare Lane to make the time back.
 

Paul_10

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The two things are related - the 1439 has to wait for the return of the previous train at Morecambe South Jn. Must then skip Bare Lane to make the time back.

Wow. It sounds rather nonsensical too me seeing as the train then sits in Morecambe for around 20 mins before heading back out to Lancaster in anycase. Could either timed the service to depart 2 mins later(or some other time) or better still, not run it at all seeing as its not a peak train and the loadings on this service must be quite minimal.
 

Mathew S

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Well, contrary to expectations, well done Northern. A 3-car 158 on the 0823 Wigan NW - Manchester Piccadilly turns out to be perfect. Enough seats for everyone (there were actually some empty seats the whole way to Manchester this morning) and a much more pleasant experience all round than a 319.
I'm impressed. If they can keep it running to time(ish) then this will be an excellent move.
 

Bovverboy

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Well, contrary to expectations, well done Northern. A 3-car 158 on the 0823 Wigan NW - Manchester Piccadilly turns out to be perfect. Enough seats for everyone (there were actually some empty seats the whole way to Manchester this morning) and a much more pleasant experience all round than a 319.
I'm impressed. If they can keep it running to time(ish) then this will be an excellent move.

Mathew S, I can only presume you get your 319 riding done in a different situation, the 0823 is never going to be 319-formed, it comes from Barrow.
What's the usual fare for the 0823 - a two car 158?
I agree that a 158 is in most respects a pleasant experience, but if things were to get hectic you would do better with a 319, the seating capacity is 50% greater than that of a 3-car 158, and the total capacity probably proportionally even greater.
The modest passenger loading seems odd, given how notoriously busy the ex-Glasgow TPE was when it used to stop at Wigan. I can only think that people haven't yet tumbled to the 0823's existence.
 

Bletchleyite

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Well, contrary to expectations, well done Northern. A 3-car 158 on the 0823 Wigan NW - Manchester Piccadilly turns out to be perfect. Enough seats for everyone (there were actually some empty seats the whole way to Manchester this morning) and a much more pleasant experience all round than a 319.
I'm impressed. If they can keep it running to time(ish) then this will be an excellent move.

0823 is probably a bit late for most commuters (given that 9am is the most usual start) so this isn't hugely surprising. If it was 0745-0800ish I would expect it a LOT busier.
 

Mathew S

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Presumably today was the first time this week that @Mathew S has taken the 0823. Until last week it was a 319 from Blackpool to the Airport, running in the same path.
Correct.

Mathew S, I can only presume you get your 319 riding done in a different situation, the 0823 is never going to be 319-formed, it comes from Barrow.
What's the usual fare for the 0823 - a two car 158?
I agree that a 158 is in most respects a pleasant experience, but if things were to get hectic you would do better with a 319, the seating capacity is 50% greater than that of a 3-car 158, and the total capacity probably proportionally even greater.
The modest passenger loading seems odd, given how notoriously busy the ex-Glasgow TPE was when it used to stop at Wigan. I can only think that people haven't yet tumbled to the 0823's existence.
I don't think we have a 'usual' yet - it's only been running for four days with DMUs (as @Greybeard33 said, prior to this it was a 319 from Blackpool). The number of people making the journey from Wigan hasn't noticable fallen since pre-May 2018 when it was the very busy TPE services. The change in the loadings on the via Chat Moss services, I think, is a combination of fewer passengers from Preston and north of Preston using via-Wigan trains, and more, faster trains (specifically the xx55/xx56/xx57 Leeds services) spreading out demand somewhat.
The difference between a 319 and a 158, which was very noticable this morning, is that passengers are prepared to use all of the seats on a 158. By contrast the very cramped 3+2 seating on a 319 meant that it was normal for the train to be packed with standing passengers even though, at a guess, roughly 20% / 25% of seats were empty.

0823 is probably a bit late for most commuters (given that 9am is the most usual start) so this isn't hugely surprising. If it was 0745-0800ish I would expect it a LOT busier.
A lot of Wigan - Manchester passengers now seem to use the 0657, 0756, and 0855 Wigan NW - Leeds services. Because they start at Wigan you're almost guaranteed a seat and, once the delays through Deansgate/OxRoad/Piccadilly are taken into account, are usually just as fast as the airport trains. 0755 arriving into Victoria at 0836 is going to be ideal for a lot of city centre workers starting at 9am. Those heading to the south of the city centre (Picc, Ox Road) seem to favour the 0650, 0750 Alderley Edge trains which, whilse slightly slower, still gets you into the city in good time to start at 8am or 9am.
 

Bovverboy

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Has the 0559 MAN-LIV (via NLW)! now switched from 319/323's to DMU's?

Today's service is formed of a 142 and a 150.

Thought the Pacers were being phased out as part of the franchise agreement?

I meant the 0559 MIA-LIV (via NLW) sorry.

It looks as though the duty is going to be DMU-operated for the rest of the week, but not necessarily with the same set, of course.

But is this diagram still normally allocated to an EMU?

It's still diagrammed for an EMU, and is likely to remain so (since it operates entirely below OHLE). If there were enough EMUs to go round it would no doubt be EMU-operated - but there presumably aren't, at the moment.

A bit of a misleading response there, on my part, with the benefit of hindsight. Yes, a four-car DMU set has been covering an EMU duty this week, but, conversely, a Class 319 has been doing the one Airport to Preston via Chat Moss duty, which is diagrammed for DMU. So, swings and roundabouts.
Out of Northern's currently available 27 319s, 24 are scheduled for use on Mondays to Fridays (this doesn't include the one currently doing Airport to Preston). Three seems a likely number to be required for scheduled maintenance (the equivalent totals for 323s are 15 required for Monday to Friday use, 2 required for scheduled maintenance).
So the deployment of Northern's 27 319s seems to sum up as follows: 24 required for service Monday to Friday, 3 required for scheduled maintenance, nil general spare. Whether nil general spare should be considered sufficient leaves scope for argument!
Actually, by virtue of the logic that a DMU can work an EMU duty but not vice-versa (the current one exception is a consequence of unusual circumstances) I would be able to see the point of not keeping any EMU spare, and covering with DMU if needed. But that, of course, assumes that spare DMUs are available..
 
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johntea

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It used to be highly frustrating as a resident of Castleford having a night out in York, catching one of the late East Coast services to Leeds which shoots through Castleford to then have to get a taxi back to Castleford from Leeds! :D

Anyway just on the 17:02 Harrogate to Leeds express (departs from P1 at Harrogate rather than P3!)...great progress until just outside Leeds where it isn’t quite so express waiting for a platform!!!
 

Marton

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Every day on 1241 Newcastle to Whitby and return 1600 Whitby to Hexham

There’s hope. I wouldn’t put yourself out to much to see it given the random selection I see.

Strange other things on real-time trains. The 1111 arrival at Nunthorpe is shown as a Sprinter. The 1120 departure a pacer. AFAIK there isn’t a depo in Nunthorpe to do the swap

FYI 158 on the 1456 Hexham Battersby today.
 

30907

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Strange other things on real-time trains. The 1111 arrival at Nunthorpe is shown as a Sprinter. The 1120 departure a pacer. AFAIK there isn’t a depo in Nunthorpe to do the swap

Why a couple of the Newcastle starters on the coast line are timed for Sprinters (30sec faster from Sunderland to Middlesbrough!) is not obvious.
Timing load is rarely a guide to diagramked unit, certainly with regional DMUs..
 

Mogster

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0823 is probably a bit late for most commuters (given that 9am is the most usual start) so this isn't hugely surprising. If it was 0745-0800ish I would expect it a LOT busier.

The services from Wigan to Victoria are fairly frequent, less so to Castlefield. If it was going to Piccadilly it would be busier I suspect. The peak Castlefield - Wigan NW services were always rammed.
 

Mathew S

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The services from Wigan to Victoria are fairly frequent, less so to Castlefield. If it was going to Piccadilly it would be busier I suspect. The peak Castlefield - Wigan NW services were always rammed.
The 0823 does go to Castlefield. I have yet to attempt the 0723, but I'm sure that is busier.
The Alderley Edge services, even in the peaks, are less crowded than I would expect them to be. Certainly travelling Piccadilly - Wigan and vice versa I've never not had a seat.
 

Mogster

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The 0823 does go to Castlefield. I have yet to attempt the 0723, but I'm sure that is busier.
The Alderley Edge services, even in the peaks, are less crowded than I would expect them to be. Certainly travelling Piccadilly - Wigan and vice versa I've never not had a seat.

I still think a lot of people associate Wigan North Western (WGN)with WCML and Liverpool services only. Unfortunately the 07:23 gets in Oxford Road too late from me.

I think the poor reliability after last May’s timetable change and the frequent short formed services last Autumn drove a lot of people on to the roads. Then there was the Withdrawal of the Wigan - Manchester TPE services. Passenger numbers seem to be picking up again though. In the evening seats are more in demand from Oxford Road.

The Edinburgh TPE Chat Moss service to WGN was always packed before it was withdrawn...
 
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Mathew S

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The Edinburgh TPE Chat Moss service to WNW was always packed before it was withdrawn...
Yeah, I know. I used to use it every day. Horrid.
I still think a lot of people associate WNW with WCML and Liverpool services only. Unfortunately the 07:23 gets in Oxford Road too late from me.

I think the poor reliability after last May’s timetable change and the frequent short formed services last Autumn drove a lot of people on to the roads. Then there was the Withdrawal of the Wigan - Manchester TPE services. Passenger numbers seem to be picking up again though. In the evening seats are more in demand from Oxford Road.
The trick is to walk the five mins up the road and board at Picc. I invariably get a seat from there no matter which service I'm catching. It's Oxford Road and onwards you get people standing, I agree.
 

Greybeard33

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A bit of a misleading response there, on my part, with the benefit of hindsight. Yes, a four-car DMU set has been covering an EMU duty this week, but, conversely, a Class 319 has been doing the one Airport to Preston via Chat Moss duty, which is diagrammed for DMU. So, swings and roundabouts.
Do you know that the temporary Airport - Preston diagram is booked as a DMU, or are you assuming that because the workings are timed for a 158?

Northern does not have enough 90mph DMUs to work the full hourly Airport - Barrow/Windermere service until the 195s are in traffic. 75mph units cannot be used because they would delay the WCML expresses. So some of the Airport - Barrow services have, until the end of June, been split into separate Airport - Preston and Lancaster - Barrow workings, and a few 3-car 158s have been borrowed from the east side to work the remaining Airport - Barrow/Windermere services, the Windermere - Oxenholme shuttle and the Barrow - Lancaster short workings. To me it makes sense that Northern would plan to use an 319 for the Airport - Preston short workings, rather than "waste" a precious 158 running to and fro under the wires all day. If that means substituting a couple of 75mph DMUs on a Chat Moss 319 diagram, where they are less likely to delay following services, so be it.

The current Airport - Preston STP workings are timed for a 158 because they are using the paths of the LTP Airport - Barrow workings. 100mph 195s and 319s should be able easily to better 158 timings, so the paths allow for the slowest traction likely to be used.
 
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