London to Norwich - 90 min timings

Railperf · 23 May 2019

dk1 said:
Not yet. Remember that under Anglia Railways the xx00 did just that in 100min every hour. Stadlers may allow this but during the peak & shoulder peak you don't really want to encourage the hoards commuting to Colchester onto Ipswich/Norwich IC services. I remember that under AR neither the 1700, 1730, 1800, 1827 or 1900 ex-Liv St called there & where fast to either Manningtree or Ipswich. There where alternative Harwich PQ or Norwich IC services serving Colchester at 1727 & 1830.

The trouble is, you do get Colchester & Manningtree commuters wanting to get on an intercity service rather than fighting with the hordes to stand on a 321 sardine can as far as Shenfield and Chelmsford. I used to commute daily from Liverpool street to Manningtree. I know the struggle. Why should people from there pay £6k a year and have to endure that torture?
The issue here is the infrastructure. Liverpool Street to Colchester really needs to be a four track railway. It is a victim of its own success. In the peak, there is a demand for more trains than you can run over the infrastructure. And the current timetable isn't helped by a mixture of rolling stock with different performance characteristics and in many cases too much 'padding' - especially where services such as the xx;18 stopper could be speeded up, but the existing timings reflect the fact that the Class 360 traction may be replaced by a much slower class 321. Also operational issues, such as the down approach to witham, have been addressed , but the timetable planners use the old timings - resulting in trains having extended waiting time there for no good reason!.

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dk1 · 23 May 2019

Railperf said:
Also operational issues, such as the down approach to witham, have been addressed , but the timetable planners use the old timings - resulting in trains having extended waiting time there for no good reason!.

Took many moons to get rid of that over cautious approach control after the abolition of Motts Lane crossing. Not something I really noticed as it was only the rare occasions during engineering work I ever call there. Train planners probably now use it as a performance buffer. All should change hopefully with the December 2020 timetable overhaul.

Railperf · 23 May 2019

dk1 said:
So annoying. I'd be cursing & punching the desk haha.

So the issue, seems to be caused by other trains occupying platform 3 when they should have been in 4, Probably something else running late earlier that day. The layout at Ipswich does not help and it could do with some extra platforms to ease flexibility. The centre road seems a waste of time. And of course the whole layout is constrained by the tunnels at the southern end too. I don't get the 30mph limit through the tunnels either.

Railperf · 23 May 2019

dk1 said:
Took many moons to get rid of that over cautious approach control after the abolition of Motts Lane crossing. Not something I really noticed as it was only the rare occasions during engineering work I ever call there. Train planners probably now use it as a performance buffer. All should change hopefully with the December 2020 timetable overhaul.

Yes..only applied to stoppers. You express drivers always got the 'green' straight through - well almost always. :lol:

yes i note that during engineering work, quite a few IC stop there - usually the Norwich services starting/terminating at Shenfield

dk1 · 23 May 2019

Railperf said:
So the issue, seems to be caused by other trains occupying platform 3 when they should have been in 4, Probably something else running late earlier that day. The layout at Ipswich does not help and it could do with some extra platforms to ease flexibility. The centre road seems a waste of time. And of course the whole layout is constrained by the tunnels at the southern end too. I don't get the 30mph limit through the tunnels either.

Centre road can be very helpful. For example the North Walsham Tanks can wait up road at the signal on the footbridge to be regulated & there's enough room to be overtaken by the following IC to run through platform 2. The tunnel was 40 until the 60s & has had dispensation for that speed during record runs in the past. It has many issues however that no doubt dictate 30mph.

Railperf · 23 May 2019

dk1 said:
Oh yes. Have to expect a red at the tunnel mouth & relying on banner repeater. Then it's 20 rather than 30 into 4 then 25 leaving until clear of the points rather than a 'thrash'

Really need a 40mph switch each end of p4. Only the very fastest IC drivers and locos would be having to brake for the 40 until the last coach cleared the switch. And a platform 5 would be handy to keep terminating Cambridge, Peterboro and the London stoppers out of P3

dk1 · 23 May 2019

Railperf said:
Really need a 40mph switch each end of p4. Only the very fastest IC drivers and locos would be having to brake for the 40 until the last coach cleared the switch. And a platform 5 would be handy to keep terminating Cambridge, Peterboro and the London stoppers out of P3

Doubt you'll get anything faster at the country end & not possible at the tunnel end. All very confined by available space. There has been much talk of additional platforms over the years & only now with FL moving out will any changes become possible.

Railperf · 23 May 2019

dk1 said:
Doubt you'll get anything faster at the country end & not possible at the tunnel end. All very confined by available space. There has been much talk of additional platforms over the years & only now with FL moving out will any changes become possible.

Didn't know FL were on the move. It is a bit of an eyesore for regular passengers, but enthusiasts must love it seeing which locos are stabled there.

38Cto15E · 23 May 2019

Railperf, I do not live in your part of the world but it would make more sense to quadruple the GEML to Colchester rather than waste billions of ££££££s saving 5 minutes to Birmingham on HS2.
Last week I was on the 1730 Norwich-Liverpool St and the nearer I got to London it seemed like I was on a Playstation with more and more trains everywhere.

dk1 · 23 May 2019

Gus said:
Railperf, I do not live in your part of the world but it would make more sense to quadruple the GEML to Colchester rather than waste billions of ££££££s saving 5 minutes to Birmingham on HS2.
Last week I was on the 1730 Norwich-Liverpool St and the nearer I got to London it seemed like I was on a Playstation with more and more trains everywhere.

Yes it just gets worse with more passengers and more freight. Always nice to use the WCML and see how the Pendolinos fly only braking on the approach to London. We can only dream of that. Bit of extra track around North Chelmsford & Witham is the best we will get over this side.

Railperf · 23 May 2019

Gus said:
Railperf, I do not live in your part of the world but it would make more sense to quadruple the GEML to Colchester rather than waste billions of ££££££s saving 5 minutes to Birmingham on HS2.
Last week I was on the 1730 Norwich-Liverpool St and the nearer I got to London it seemed like I was on a Playstation with more and more trains everywhere.

Without straying too far off-topic, HS2 is also partially about relieving capacity on the ECML and WCML for more freight, local and regional services. So the business case ( costs being questioned) is supposedly there. Quadrupling the GEML south of Shenfield is almost impossible. because the railway is constrained in so many ways. The costs of widening would be astronomical, and for what? To benefit the lives of a a few commuters? It will never happen in a million years. Maybe a better idea would have been to extend cross rail tunnels from Stratford to Shenfield, then you could have used the electric lines for some outer suburban use. But again, that only really works in the peaks, and would serve no useful purpose outside that.
Maybe the answer was -pre electrification - to have made the loading gauge bigger to accommodate Continental style double deck trains on the commuter services. Rather than run more trains, why not run higher capacity trains? As it was most of the bridges had to be raised, to accommodate the wiring. Platform edges just needing trimming back slightly. But again - it comes down to ££££££.
The GEMl needs to be run like a metro system now. You need the infrastructure to be able to cope with more trains running closer together and quick turnarounds, like a mainline version of the London Underground Jubilee line. Digital signalling and possible ATO in the years to come. Will also cost ££££

Railperf · 23 May 2019

dk1 said:
Yes it just gets worse with more passengers and more freight. Always nice to use the WCML and see how the Pendolinos fly only braking on the approach to London. We can only dream of that. Bit of extra track around North Chelmsford & Witham is the best we will get over this side.

Yes, euston has the benefit of 6 tracks to Watford, 2 for the stopping services, 2 for the mainline, 2 for outer suburban. And the very fastest 110mph outer suburban trains use the mainline - 2 paths per hour.
No chance on the GEML.

oliMw · 23 May 2019

I'm currently on the 09:00 Norwich - Liverpool Street. The service was fairly well loaded from Norwich with approximately the same number of passengers joining again at Ipswich. 80% of the seats are now full in coach G. Passing through Diss and Stowmarket at speed was a treat, however both stations had quite a few passengers waiting for the 09:03 Norwich - Liverpool Street, a less comfortable run into London for them! We arrived into Ipswich about 09:32 a minute ahead of schedule. The dispatch at Ipswich was very fast with many staff on the platform and passengers being hurried onto the train to allow us to leave on time. A buffet and trolly service is available, the host announced that freebies would be available for first class passengers, which is odd because I wasn't able to book a first class ticket for this service. We've slowed slightly approaching Chelmsford but it looks like we should be arriving into Liverpool Street on time, so long as nothing goes wrong into London ...

oliMw · 23 May 2019

Norwich - Liverpool Street In 1 hour 26, the fastest i’ve ever done it. I was half expecting an early arrival fanfair like on Ryanair however fortunately not!

dk1 · 23 May 2019

oliMw said:
Norwich - Liverpool Street In 1 hour 26, the fastest i’ve ever done it. I was half expecting an early arrival fanfair like on Ryanair however fortunately not!

Another super run for 9P91 & as you say fortunately none of that Ryanair crap. I'm still in shock that M&S use Ant & Dec on their self service checkouts. So Poundland and cringing.

Dave1987 · 23 May 2019

dk1 said:
Another super run for 9P91 & as you say fortunately none of that Ryanair crap. I'm still in shock that M&S use Ant & Dec on their self service checkouts. So Poundland and cringing.

Preceding Southend shoved over to P5 at Stratford and resulted in 3 late arrival into Liv St for it.

Owen · 23 May 2019

It arrived early??

hexagon789 · 23 May 2019

Owen said:
It arrived early??

The 0900 Norwich-London Liverpool Street arrived 3.25 early according to RTT, running on time or early throughout.

chubs · 23 May 2019

Railperf said:
Didn't know FL were on the move. It is a bit of an eyesore for regular passengers, but enthusiasts must love it seeing which locos are stabled there.

Is it still a class 86 graveyard?

chubs · 23 May 2019

dk1 said:
Another super run for 9P91 & as you say fortunately none of that Ryanair crap. I'm still in shock that M&S use Ant & Dec on their self service checkouts. So Poundland and cringing.

The woman manning them the other week looked miserable, and I clearly wasn't the first person to moan about it. It's to do with their tie up to whatever rubbish sat night tv show they are peddling.

You can shut them up now by hitting the volume button, the first week it wasn't working....

delticdave · 23 May 2019

dk1 said:
There is an ECS formed of 321 stock around 20:40 from the Centre Road now. The 22:00 has to be IC stock as it's worked by a Norwich driver as far as Colchester where I presume the Liv St driver who took the bins now relieves him/her.

"Centre Road", where dat?
TIA, DC.

clagmonster · 23 May 2019

delticdave said:
"Centre Road", where dat?
TIA, DC.

Between platforms four and five at Norwich Thorpe station.

Bald Rick · 23 May 2019

Gus said:
Railperf, I do not live in your part of the world but it would make more sense to quadruple the GEML to Colchester rather than waste billions of ££££££s saving 5 minutes to Birmingham on HS2.
Last week I was on the 1730 Norwich-Liverpool St and the nearer I got to London it seemed like I was on a Playstation with more and more trains everywhere.

The GEML has similar issues to the WCML - a wide mix of traffic with not enough tracks to support either more growth or shorter journey times.

What I think you are advocating above is that instead of providing an additional 2 tracks between London, Birmingham and elsewhere to enable more trains and faster journey times between London and the largest metropolitan areas in the country, you would prefer an additional 2 tracks between London and Colchester to enable more trains and faster journey times between London and Colchester, Ipswich and Norwich.

Much as I have fondness for the railways of Anglia, I know which I would do if it were up to me.

dk1 said:
Yes it just gets worse with more passengers and more freight. Always nice to use the WCML and see how the Pendolinos fly only braking on the approach to London. We can only dream of that.

The WCML timetable is very well designed, and segregates the traffic. Just not possible on the GE north of Shenfield.

delticdave · 23 May 2019

clagmonster said:
Between platforms four and five at Norwich Thorpe station.

Thanks, I was in Norwich yesterday & noticed that it was wired, maybe there was a loco-release cross-over in the past.
I caught the 1700 "fast service" back to Ipswich & it seemed to get up to speed quite quickly. The max.speed according to my 'phone was 101 mph, mostly 97-100 mph until the braking for the Ipswich stop.
I was amused by the 1700, 1703 & 1730 to Liv. St all platformed at Norwich, occupying 1/2 the station + the unexpected 14 40 round trip to Yarmouth with the 2 x 37's & the 3-car short set, according to the driver it was an emergency cover for a defunct DMU.
Zero to 60 mph leaving Acle eastbound took 65.5 seconds, quite impressed by the enthusiastic driving.

cle · 23 May 2019

Surely the new track need is Shenfield to Witham at a minimum?

Perhaps 2tph of the 4tph future Southend services could run into Crossrail - so there would still be 2 fast, and then 2 local with connections at Shenfield. Not ideal, but something of a compromise.

eastdyke · 23 May 2019

delticdave said:
Thanks, I was in Norwich yesterday & noticed that it was wired, maybe there was a loco-release cross-over in the past. ......

There was, can be seen on a drawing of the signal box track layout for Norwich Thorpe Passenger Yard box at 1956, from the collection of John Hinson:
https://signalbox.org/diagrams.php?id=619
It was still there a couple of years later when I made my first visit to Norwich, no knowledge of when it was removed. I do have an idea though that there was a loco-release just for P4 until relatively recently. [As well as the release still retained for P2].

Railperf · 23 May 2019

Dave1987 said:
Preceding Southend shoved over to P5 at Stratford and resulted in 3 late arrival into Liv St for it.

Strange decision that..as it was on time. And yesterday...it did not get in the way. I'm baffled at that one. And i would be really annoyed as a passenger.

eastdyke · 23 May 2019

Railperf said:
Strange decision that..as it was on time. And yesterday...it did not get in the way. I'm baffled at that one. And i would be really annoyed as a passenger.

I think that it would have been in the way today as, even though the Southend V IK45 was RT at Romford, 9P91 and the following Clacton IN31 were both 2E close behind. The Southend was put on the UE (Up Electric) via the Up Avoiding Line at Ilford, seemingly as a 'reward' for being RT!

Both the Norwich and the Clacton were then early into Liverpool Street.

The timetable only works for everybody if everything is RT.

Bald Rick · 23 May 2019

cle said:
Surely the new track need is Shenfield to Witham at a minimum?

All 4 lines are effectively at capacity west of Shenfield. All new tracks between Shenfield and Witham would do is enable faster services to overtake stoppers. It wouldn’t permit any new services, at least not in the peak.

JonathanH · 23 May 2019

Railperf said:
Quadrupling the GEML south of Shenfield is almost impossible.

Bald Rick said:
All 4 lines are effectively at capacity west of Shenfield. All new tracks between Shenfield and Witham would do is enable faster services to overtake stoppers. It wouldn’t permit any new services, at least not in the peak.

Does that matter? Almost everything runs Liverpool Street - Stratford - Shenfield now and then a mix of calling patterns is needed on the Shenfield to Colchester bit to allow stoppers, fasts and freight. Putting extra lines in at some points between Shenfield and Colchester would at least allow faster services to more places accepting that there wouldn't be more of them.

Is a trick being missed with EWR to get Felixstowe to WCML freight to go via that route? (Someone previously noted that going to Nuneaton causes an issue with getting freight to Daventry.

London to Norwich - 90 min timings

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