Caledonian Sleeper

GrimShady · 23 May 2019

BRX said:
How many spare 73s are sitting around waiting for conversion to 73/9s though! I'm not sure if the details of your specific plan would work, but I do think that it would have been preferable (from the point of view of it operating as a public service rather than tourist train operation) for the CS operations to have remained part of the Scotrail franchise.

The passenger stock plan is sound however as you say 73 maybe in short supply. There are a number sitting round all day with nothing to do however. New builds are all the rage these days, that could have been an option.

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Bletchleyite · 23 May 2019

BRX said:
I think those DB talgo sets are no longer around?

Indeed not, because DB have stopped all sleeper services, though I think they were withdrawn some years before that.

That said they too may be unworkable for CS. I believe the reason for the issue was that if someone was lying head towards the direction of travel and there was a collision, they would end up with a broken neck/spine (and as they are asleep they don't "see it coming" and protect themselves with their hands, say - basically they're dead or paralysed before they even know about it). If the trains only went one way with no reversals that would be fine with longitudinal couchettes, but because of the reversal at Edinburgh[1] that would be an issue unless you woke everyone up and turned them round, while with the pods it wasn't realistic to have them all facing the same way and turn the stock each time.

Edit: And if you were going to put pods sideways on up one side of the coach, you might as well just put 4-in-a-compartment couchettes in, it'd take no more space, probably less because you could double-stack them. Though something more suitable for single travellers like transverse Japanese-style "capsule hotel" type things might have been worth a go, unless they would cause too much of a rescue issue in the event of a collision.

[1] Is that just the Fort Bill? If so maybe it would be workable as long as they weren't offered on that portion. Though ECML diversions would be an issue.

BRX · 23 May 2019

All 3 portions are reversed.

Bletchleyite · 23 May 2019

BRX said:
All 3 portions are reversed.

<looks at a map>

So they are. I didn't realise it was just the ECML and North Berwick out of the east end of Waverley!

BRX · 23 May 2019

GrimShady said:
New builds are all the range these days, that could have been an option.

I thought the situation was that there's no current new-build diesel option that meets latest emissions regs - hence all the body-snatcher conversions including the 73/9s.

Bletchleyite · 23 May 2019

BRX said:
I thought the situation was that there's no current new-build diesel option that meets latest emissions regs - hence all the body-snatcher conversions including the 73/9s.

That kept being thrown around, but it was, like most of these rumours, completely false. New build diesel locomotives are available in the UK to order if you would like any, so are DMUs despite those being supposedly impossible too. You can add that to gangways, properly sized luggage racks and so on. If there's a will (and money), a way is always found.

gingerheid · 23 May 2019

The way they could have increased the capacity of the trains a little would have been to arrange the cabins like the original Yotels were (eg Gatwick Airport); you access the bottom bunk from one side and the top bunk from the cabin next door on the other side. This would of course have come at the cost of the loss of the flexibility of being able to have either one or two people in the cabin.

BRX · 23 May 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Edit: And if you were going to put pods sideways on up one side of the coach, you might as well just put 4-in-a-compartment couchettes in, it'd take no more space, probably less because you could double-stack them. Though something more suitable for single travellers like transverse Japanese-style "capsule hotel" type things might have been worth a go, unless they would cause too much of a rescue issue in the event of a collision.

I would go for the capsule hotel approach. Or a version of what they have in the cheapest class of Japanese sleeper train -

https://jprail.com/trains/sort-by-type/limited-express/sunrise-seto.html

Bletchleyite · 23 May 2019

I think that's a bit intimate for British likings, I'd rather squash myself into the space between a pair of airline seats and the ones in front and have a bit of privacy. You could do something similar with better partitions, though.

BRX · 23 May 2019

gingerheid said:
The way they could have increased the capacity of the trains a little would have been to arrange the cabins like the original Yotels were (eg Gatwick Airport); you access the bottom bunk from one side and the top bunk from the cabin next door on the other side. This would of course have come at the cost of the loss of the flexibility of being able to have either one or two people in the cabin.

Doesn't save you any space compared to a normal cabin - in fact uses up more.

BRX · 23 May 2019

Bletchleyite said:
New build diesel locomotives are available in the UK to order if you would like any,

What are they?

Bletchleyite · 23 May 2019

BRX said:
Doesn't save you any space compared to a normal cabin - in fact uses up more.

It can increase capacity if most people travel singly, by making two single cabins take up the space of 1.5 single cabins as they did do it.

Bletchleyite · 23 May 2019

BRX said:
What are they?

I believe Stadler offer one, I forget what class it is.

BRX · 23 May 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I believe Stadler offer one, I forget what class it is.

Already designed for UK loading gauge?

Bletchleyite · 23 May 2019

BRX said:
Already designed for UK loading gauge?

I don't know, but given that conversions also need designing...

Norther Monkey · 23 May 2019

Bletchleyite said:
.......I believe the reason for the issue was that if someone was lying head towards the direction of travel and there was a collision, they would end up with a broken neck/spine (and as they are asleep they don't "see it coming" and protect themselves with their hands, say - basically they're dead or paralysed before they even know about it).....

If concerns about collisions are that great why can I stand at 125mph on a packed 'Inter-City' train, such as IEP? Masses of luggage unrestrained, much of it above head height and of a weight that could easily cause serious injury during derailment or crash.
With transverse beds this kind of injury would seem to be likely during a high speed derailment such as Grayrigg.
It seems to me an overly cautious risk assessment compared to what is tolerated on other stock - perhaps one that Serco found convenient.

Bletchleyite · 23 May 2019

Norther Monkey said:
If concerns about collisions are that great why can I stand at 125mph on a packed 'Inter-City' train, such as IEP? Masses of luggage unrestrained, much of it above head height and of a weight that could easily cause serious injury during derailment or crash.

Because you are very unlikely to have a force exceeding your bodyweight break your neck in that scenario. Whereas that is pretty much certain in a pod flatbed - it positions your body precisely to do the worst damage, and you would be asleep so wouldn't be able to protect yourself with your hands.

You mentioned Greyrigg - one person died during that, and that was an elderly person who may easily have died if they had a heavy fall in the street (sad though it was), so I think we can conclude that standing at 125mph is no great issue.

For similar reasons Stagecoach drivers on the sleeper buses were careful to ensure people were the right way round.

With transverse beds this kind of injury would seem to be likely during a high speed derailment such as Grayrigg.

It would take a far lesser accident - just an end-on crash - to cause serious injury on a flatbed with your head facing the direction of travel.

It seems to me an overly cautious risk assessment compared to what is tolerated on other stock - perhaps one that Serco found convenient.

This may also be true, but there is something in it.

GrimShady · 23 May 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I believe Stadler offer one, I forget what class it is.

Bletchleyite said:
That kept being thrown around, but it was, like most of these rumours, completely false. New build diesel locomotives are available in the UK to order if you would like any, so are DMUs despite those being supposedly impossible too. You can add that to gangways, properly sized luggage racks and so on. If there's a will (and money), a way is always found.

Exactly. The railway these days seems to have lost its creative edge ever since privatisation. Everything seems to be of very rigid thought patterns.

Weren't ROG looking at a fleet of 10 type 3 locos recently?

BRX · 23 May 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I don't know, but given that conversions also need designing...

I thought that was the problem though, fitting any existing design into the UK gauge is not easy. So it's not off the shelf but significant redesign specifically for the UK market. Hence expensive. Hence 73/9s and 56s being converted to 69s and what have you.

Conversions need designing as well, yes, but they don't have to comply with the new regs, and therefore don't have the need to fit in extra, bulky kit which causes the difficulties.

Struner · 23 May 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I believe Stadler offer one, I forget what class it is.

That would be Stadler's Eurolight I think.

BRX · 23 May 2019

Struner said:
That would be Stadler's Eurolight I think.

That's not to UK loading gauge - the equivalent they call the UKlight is the class 68 which is not compliant with the new regs - as I understand it.

Scotrail84 · 23 May 2019

philthetube said:
Does anyone know if you can use priv tickets if using the sleeper as a day train?

Yes but if all 31 seats are taken you won't get on.

Clayton · 23 May 2019

BRX said:
I would go for the capsule hotel approach. Or a version of what they have in the cheapest class of Japanese sleeper train -

https://jprail.com/trains/sort-by-type/limited-express/sunrise-seto.html

View attachment 63458 View attachment 63459 View attachment 63460

What a nightmare! I’d rather fly

Kite159 · 23 May 2019

haggishunter said:
Going back to when they started allowing day passengers from Kingussie northwards, it was done to provide a commuter service without requiring to tie up a unit. From outdoor activities perspective getting the Inverness sleeper from the Central Belt North would be quite useful and there was certainly discussions about this at the time, but the issue that was raised was disturbance to overnight passengers, which was not an issue for the Fort William seats because people had to get up and change coach anyway. There was some chat about adding (a)coach(es) at Edinburgh, but disturbance of the seated sleeper passengers by people from the day coach trudging back and fore to the lounge car was cited, along with the impracticability of shunting the seated sleeper off the lounge to insert a day coach.

Splitting the Highlander into an Inverness train and a Fort William + Aberdeen train would allow greater flexibility on capacity, allow day travel from Edinburgh to Inverness and a significantly improved service on the Fort William sleeper, particularly the seats. Could this in any way be managed as 3 departures from Euston, but the 2 Highlanders shunted together after leaving so as to have one 18-20 coach train through to Edinburgh?

Wasn't it a case of the sleeper was the only train from Kingussie/Aviemore which would arrive into Inverness before 10:30? I would imagine the number of commuters using the sleeper would have decreased when Scotrail introduced the 05:03 Perth - Inverness service a couple years ago?

FtoE · 23 May 2019

Kite159 said:
Wasn't it a case of the sleeper was the only train from Kingussie/Aviemore which would arrive into Inverness before 10:30? I would imagine the number of commuters using the sleeper would have decreased when Scotrail introduced the 05:03 Perth - Inverness service a couple years ago?

I travelled on the 05:03 Perth - Inverness a couple of weeks ago and was one of 4 who alighted at Inverness

TimboM · 24 May 2019

BRX said:
That's not to UK loading gauge - the equivalent they call the UKlight is the class 68 which is not compliant with the new regs - as I understand it.

It's not just the UK loading gauge - the WHL in particular has a low(ish) RA (Route Availability) and a few bridges with weight limits on. The 67s had punitive speed restrictions on them at certain points as would 68s presumably. Ideally you need something with a comparatively light axle load but a decent bit of grunt... like a bespoke re-engineered 73/9 with new innards including a more powerful diesel engine!

ashkeba · 24 May 2019

BRX said:
Same here, probably the best overnight arrangement I've used. Also avoids the awkwardness of 'cabin-mate' scenarios you get with traditional couchettes.

I think those DB talgo sets are no longer around?

Are any pictures of them around, please?

I like the look of the Japanese dormitory cars more than couchettes. But aren't many couchettes also offered as toilet-at-end-of-corridor higher-price private rooms for 2-4 people where they just don't fold down some beds so you get more room (standing/seat/table space if 3 or fewer people) and the operator maximises the revenue?

Bletchleyite · 24 May 2019

ashkeba said:
Are any pictures of them around, please?

https://www.bahninfo.de/sonderseiten/fotogalerien/talgo-nachtzug/index.html has some over two pages of all of the train.

I like the look of the Japanese dormitory cars more than couchettes. But aren't many couchettes also offered as toilet-at-end-of-corridor higher-price private rooms for 2-4 people where they just don't fold down some beds so you get more room (standing/seat/table space if 3 or fewer people) and the operator maximises the revenue?

Yes, some operators allow them to be booked in that manner, they make good "family rooms".

ashkeba · 24 May 2019

Bletchleyite said:
https://www.bahninfo.de/sonderseiten/fotogalerien/talgo-nachtzug/index.html has some over two pages of all of the train.

I'm failing to spot an aisle-dorm style coach there. Only usual seats, restaurant, couchettes and cabins that I've seen in Spain.

Bletchleyite · 24 May 2019

ashkeba said:
I'm failing to spot an aisle-dorm style coach there. Only usual seats, restaurant, couchettes and cabins that I've seen in Spain.

There are two pages, it's on the second page. Or maybe you're not picking up on how the couchettes are arranged - they are all longitudinal, there were no traditional 6 or 4 compartments on that stock.

e.g.: https://www.bahninfo.de/sonderseiten/fotogalerien/talgo-nachtzug/slides/Bild-033.html (that's with the top bunk folded up as it is in "day mode").

Apart from the slightly "wavy" aisle it's near identical to the Thai ones.

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