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CrossCountry voyagers due for a referb?

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yorksrob

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Meridians are years away, given any likely timescale for the MML's new trains. Capacity really needs to be boosted much sooner.
 
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supervc-10

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Meridians are years away, given any likely timescale for the MML's new trains. Capacity really needs to be boosted much sooner.

Totally agree, just with my cynical hat on I don't feel like anything else is likely to happen until then! If new trains were ordered tomorrow, I doubt they'd be in service any sooner- after all, the process has already started in procuring new stock for the MML, and so they're the next big IC fleet to be sorted. The only thing that I think could be done is to add some of the various surplus HSTs, but not sure if that's feasible, especially with the cost of the PRM mods.
 

Energy

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Note sure if someone has mentioned this but Bombardier are working on a 125mph bimode aventra, as the voyagers are demus could you modify an aventra carriage enough to work with voyagers, then the electric motors can get power from there already existing diesel engines or the pantograph on the new carriage.
 

Meerkat

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You have to have one bay in the carriage so that not all seats face the same way.

Why can’t all seats face the same way? You could have the seats facing different direction on one side of the aisle to the other if it matters that much.
 

JonathanH

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Why can’t all seats face the same way? You could have the seats facing different direction on one side of the aisle to the other if it matters that much.

Because one will face the wall - nothing wrong with all except one pair of seats facing the same way
 

Meerkat

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Because one will face the wall - nothing wrong with all except one pair of seats facing the same way

Is that a problem? As long as the legroom is enough.....could even put a half table there that laptop users would appreciate
 

Mogz

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Very much a matter of opinion, that.

Table seats are much better for families (especially with children) travelling together. It’s easier to keep small children occupied with a table to hand, a nice big view out of the window and games/food.

Group travel is also made more pleasant.

I prefer table seating but will usually occupy an airline seat when travelling alone so as to leave the tables free for groups. I have even been known to move seats when seated at a table to enable a group to sit together.

My view, for what it’s worth, is that a mixture of seating styles as found on the latest German ICE trains (which is mainly airline seating but with a good proportion of tables and even a few compartments) would be the best model to follow.
 

RLBH

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My view, for what it’s worth, is that a mixture of seating styles as found on the latest German ICE trains (which is mainly airline seating but with a good proportion of tables and even a few compartments) would be the best model to follow.
I seem to recall that one of the recent procurements was specified on the basis that about one-third of passengers preferred airline seating, about one-third preferred bay seats, and about one-third didn't much care either way.
 

a_c_skinner

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Recently I got off a XC 125 at Alnmouth. The guard (who walked the whole set as it is self dispatch there) intimated that in the next year or two power door 125s would be along. Is he right and will these be extra or simply replacing the existing 125s?

The whole rolling stock issue on XC is urgent. Not the travel environment on Voyagers as much as the whole issue of capacity and this chimes with the same on TPE where they overlap. Both (like Northern and I guess others) must limit ridership simply because of loadings.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Recently I got off a XC 125 at Alnmouth. The guard (who walked the whole set as it is self dispatch there) intimated that in the next year or two power door 125s would be along. Is he right and will these be extra or simply replacing the existing 125s?

The whole rolling stock issue on XC is urgent. Not the travel environment on Voyagers as much as the whole issue of capacity and this chimes with the same on TPE where they overlap. Both (like Northern and I guess others) must limit ridership simply because of loadings.
A couple of the 5 HST sets already have power doors. I believe either 2 or 3.
 

sprinterguy

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Recently I got off a XC 125 at Alnmouth. The guard (who walked the whole set as it is self dispatch there) intimated that in the next year or two power door 125s would be along. Is he right and will these be extra or simply replacing the existing 125s?
The existing five Crosscountry HST sets are receiving power doors. Two have already been completed and entered service (XC03 and XC01), while a third set (XC04) recently entered Doncaster works for the same work to be undertaken. Wabtec are expecting to have completed all five within the next 12 months.
 

Chris125

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Note sure if someone has mentioned this but Bombardier are working on a 125mph bimode aventra, as the voyagers are demus could you modify an aventra carriage enough to work with voyagers, then the electric motors can get power from there already existing diesel engines or the pantograph on the new carriage.

I can't imagine that being worth the bother, the principle of turning them into bi-modes has been proposed and rejected before ('Project Thor' IIRC).
 

59CosG95

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I can't imagine that being worth the bother, the principle of turning them into bi-modes has been proposed and rejected before ('Project Thor' IIRC).
Ah yes, 'Project Thor' - the 'Project Zeus' of the rail industry. I believe it became unviable when the penny dropped that Bombardier in Bruges (where the 22x units were built) had dissembled the jigs, and neither they nor Litchurch Lane were willing to rebuild them just to construct a small order of a handful of vehicles with pantographs in.
 

Scott M

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They’re less refined than a 158. Says a lot really.

The worst things to be inflicted on the long distance passenger since 150/2s on Trans Pennine Holyhead-Scarborough trains in the 80s.

As someone who commutes from Newcastle to Birmingham on a weekly basis I have to say I disagree with this. I much prefer it when I get a voyager, and try to avoid the HST diagrams. I find voyagers to be a smooth ride, HST I find to be quite jerky, especially when speeding up and slowing down.

Voyagers also have good luggage space, free WiFi, enough leg room to fit my full size laptop even when in a non-table seat, plug sockets at all seats, and I find them comfortable. Not much else I would want from a long-distance train.

By way of comparison, I recently did a return trip from Birmingham to Cambridge (~2.5 hours in each direction) in a Turbostar, which was comparatively poor. Cramped seats, rough ride, no plug sockets... not sure how that is permissible in today’s era of e-tickets, I spent the return journey fretting over whether my phone was going to run out of power with my ticket on it!

I do agree that Virgin’s are better however, and that XC’s could do with a refresh. White panels and the purple lights that virgin have would go a long way. Having said that, one of my XC voyagers had purple lights the other week, so maybe they are in the process of doing this.
 
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Jozhua

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Okay, so this is news to me, but is the only direct rail connection between Manchester and Birmingham twice hourly 4-car Voyagers?

I assumed some services to London stopped by Birmingham...

Sorry for stating what everyone has probably known for years, I'm new to Manchester and only travelled south via Birmingham today! It was a real shock to me though, I assumed the UK's 2nd and 3rd cities would have much more connectivity and capacity than this. The journey times are quite long as well...
 

ashkeba

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Okay, so this is news to me, but is the only direct rail connection between Manchester and Birmingham twice hourly 4-car Voyagers?

I assumed some services to London stopped by Birmingham...

Sorry for stating what everyone has probably known for years, I'm new to Manchester and only travelled south via Birmingham today! It was a real shock to me though, I assumed the UK's 2nd and 3rd cities would have much more connectivity and capacity than this. The journey times are quite long as well...
There are a few VT Manchester-London services that fill in gaps.
 

XC victim

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Okay, so this is news to me, but is the only direct rail connection between Manchester and Birmingham twice hourly 4-car Voyagers?

I assumed some services to London stopped by Birmingham...

Sorry for stating what everyone has probably known for years, I'm new to Manchester and only travelled south via Birmingham today! It was a real shock to me though, I assumed the UK's 2nd and 3rd cities would have much more connectivity and capacity than this. The journey times are quite long as well...

There is obviously the occasional 5 car XC service between Birmingham & Manchester.

Even more concerning is the HOURLY 4 coach voyager (or 5 coach) service from Birmingham to Leeds.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Okay, so this is news to me, but is the only direct rail connection between Manchester and Birmingham twice hourly 4-car Voyagers?

I assumed some services to London stopped by Birmingham...

Sorry for stating what everyone has probably known for years, I'm new to Manchester and only travelled south via Birmingham today! It was a real shock to me though, I assumed the UK's 2nd and 3rd cities would have much more connectivity and capacity than this. The journey times are quite long as well...
Yes, that's the only usual connection (though sometimes it is a 5 car unit, which is a capacity increase of just over a third for standard class). Foreseeable overcrowding regularly results at the usual "peak" hours, but even at "off-peak" times it can be full and standing.

During engineering works on the WCML South it has been the usual modus operandi for Virgin to operate the services on behalf of CrossCountry using 9 or 11 car Pendolinos - a substantial capacity increase!

Manchester to Birmingham is but one of the journeys which are surprisingly poorly served across the UK. As for whether any London to Manchester services go that way, there is one in the morning peak towards London that substitutes in for a "missing" XC Voyager service, but other than this and any engineering work diversions there aren't any direct services via Birmingham.

It wouldn't make much sense either - it's a much slower route via the Stour Valley as the speed limits are much lower in parts, it's a longer route mileage-wise, plus it is an exceptionally busy two-track line with a mix of traffic. It's therefore one of the key bottlenecks around which the WCML timetable is planned.

I suppose it would, from a capacity perspective, be possible to serve Manchester from the current terminating London-Birmingham Virgin services instead of from XC's ex-Southwest/South services, thereby adding capacity and avoiding running diesel trains (Voyagers) "under the wires".

But the Pendolino fleet is already extremely stretched with Virgin's current timetable, so an extra, say, 5 or 10 electric 125mph tilting trains would be needed to fill the gap. None suited to the UK network are currently in production, so you can imagine procuring a new type wouldn't be cheap, plus microfleets are very expensive to maintain per unit.

It would also be totally counterintuitive given that HS2 is, in train procurement timescales, not long away. Plus then there's the thorny issue of stations that current have direct services to north of Birmingham losing these services as there's not enough capacity for 4tph (these direct connections being the raison d'être for CrossCountry's simple hourly route pairings in the first place...).

Ultimately it will take until HS2 Phase 2b for the journey to be fully revolutionised into a fast and painless experience. In particular, travelling to Manchester Airport is extremely awkward if you're travelling from anywhere south of Crewe at the moment, so HS2 2b will be a major boon for that.

There is the possibility that XC may be allocated additional trains (the current suggestion being ex-EMT Meridians), in order to enable doubling up or a carriage reshuffle to allow for train lengthening, but until the new franchise is awarded in ? years we will not know for sure.
 
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Jozhua

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Thank-you for all your insightful responses!

80X seems even more suitable for XC considering this, especially for the amount of time running under wires on this route. In fact, the option to strengthen to 10 cars between Birmingham and Manchester would definitely be good, due to the fact the train gets awfully busy between these cities and quietens going further south.

Making sure to add extra capacity to this route, despite HS2 will doubtlessly be important due to the need to serve intermediate stations and passengers wanting a direct connection to the south west.

After spending 3 hours on one today, Voyagers aren't awful trains, they could just do with some modernisation. I could definitely see them serving Birmingham-Leeds-Scotland well into the future if given some TLC and a higher provision of them.

XC is unfortunately a perfect example of the "centralisation" of rail in the UK around London. The franchise touches many corners of the country, even going to areas near London such as Reading, Guildford, etc. However, there seems a lack of political will or even realisation there are and have been capacity issues for many years on XC.
 

ashkeba

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XC is unfortunately a perfect example of the "centralisation" of rail in the UK around London. The franchise touches many corners of the country, even going to areas near London such as Reading, Guildford, etc. However, there seems a lack of political will or even realisation there are and have been capacity issues for many years on XC.
Politicians and officers based in Whitehall don't use XC much, perhaps? Out of sight, out of mind.
 
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White panels and the purple lights that virgin have would go a long way. Having said that, one of my XC voyagers had purple lights the other week, so maybe they are in the process of doing this.

No - two Voyagers transferred from Virgin West Coast to CrossCountry in 2017 (Class 221) and the interior lighting wasn’t changed. You’ll also notice these two 221 sets are only 4 carriages long instead of 5 so easy to spot (221144 is one of them).
 

NorthernSpirit

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Okay, so this is news to me, but is the only direct rail connection between Manchester and Birmingham twice hourly 4-car Voyagers?

More or less yes, on some services you get the luxury of it being five car. I'd rather it being an HST (high speed train) on the 1900 out of Bristol Temple Meads.
 

Jozhua

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More or less yes, on some services you get the luxury of it being five car. I'd rather it being an HST (high speed train) on the 1900 out of Bristol Temple Meads.

I'm on that train, definitely isn't as bad as the ones in the peak of the day, still got 5 mins till we leave though...

Looking at all the wires on the route, a 6/7 car 802 would be perfect!
 

Mogz

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Yes, that's the only usual connection (though sometimes it is a 5 car unit, which is a capacity increase of just over a third for standard class). Foreseeable overcrowding regularly results at the usual "peak" hours, but even at "off-peak" times it can be full and standing.
...
Manchester to Birmingham is but one of the journeys which are surprisingly poorly served across the UK.

.

By contrast, Liverpool has frequent semi-fast WCML electric services to Birmingham New Street operated by LNWR but no Cross-Country trains at all. Until the early 2000s Liverpool had XC trains to the South Coast, South West, Scotland and London Paddington (usually advertised as terminating at Reading).

Perhaps if the XC services to Manchester were alternated with Liverpool as a destination, Manchester could have some of Liverpool’s LNWR electric services to Birmingham?
 

sprinterguy

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No - two Voyagers transferred from Virgin West Coast to CrossCountry in 2017 (Class 221) and the interior lighting wasn’t changed. You’ll also notice these two 221 sets are only 4 carriages long instead of 5 so easy to spot (221144 is one of them).
Two existing 5-car Crosscountry 221s each lost one vehicle to create three 4-car units using the two driving cars from 221144, which were off lease at the time. Only one vehicle (60794) transferred to XC from Virgin West Coast in a straight swap with vehicle 60986.
 
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XC victim

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Two existing 5-car Crosscountry 221s each lost one vehicle to create three 4-car units using the two driving cars from 221144, which were off lease at the time. Only one vehicle (60794) transferred to XC from Virgin West Coast in a straight swap with vehicle 60986.

Just out of interest did XC increase the number of double set voyager diagrams or has all that happened is that we now have more 4 car (and less 5 car) voyager services than before?
 

43055

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Just out of interest did XC increase the number of double set voyager diagrams or has all that happened is that we now have more 4 car (and less 5 car) voyager services than before?
I think the 0645 York - Plymouth and 1325 Plymouth - Edinburgh (but only as far as Newcastle) went from a single set to a double set.
 

TH172341

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Might have been mentioned but Coach D on 221144 has the same purple internal above seat lights as what the Virgin Voyagers have now. Hope that gets rolled out on other examples.
 
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