Transfer of TPE 350/4s to West Midlands Trains (LNR)

TT-ONR-NRN · 23 May 2019

The 350/2s will soon be withdrawn in favour of the 350/4s.

Can anyone confirm when the 350/2s will begin to leave, when the 350/4s will be entering service and whether or not they’ll be refurbished first please? Also, will they retain 2x1 first class does anyone know.

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Alasdair Clift · 23 May 2019

I heard somewhere that the 350/4s were due to arrive in December, although that presumably relies on the 397s entering service on time (which right now is unlikely). The 350/2s won't leave until the 730 Aventras arrive (which won't be until 2021-22 at the earliest), as they're the replacement for the fleet, the /4s are simply there for a capacity boost. There's only 10 350/4s compared with 37 350/2s

Bletchleyite · 23 May 2019

/4s are a "growth build", they are not replacing anything.

/2s will go when the required numbers of Aventras have been delivered.

Silverlinky · 23 May 2019

350403 is currently at Wolverton, de-branded but awaiting repairs which will see the Driving coach damaged in the Gretna incident sent back to Germany to be straightened out.

The /4's are supposed to start arriving in September 19, the /2's are not due to start departing until September 20.

gimmea50anyday · 23 May 2019

So where are the 2's going?

samuelmorris · 23 May 2019

gimmea50anyday said:
So where are the 2's going?

At the moment, nowhere other than for a small number to be converted for Porterbrook's Battery Flex programme - they'll otherwise be laid up waiting for a user. Entirely possible they'll see use with EMR on the Corby route, but no guarantees at all about that as plenty of other stock is in the same situation.

HLE · 23 May 2019

gimmea50anyday said:
So where are the 2's going?

That's the million dollar question

_toommm_ · 23 May 2019

Silverlinky said:
350403 is currently at Wolverton, de-branded but awaiting repairs which will see the Driving coach damaged in the Gretna incident sent back to Germany to be straightened out.

The /4's are supposed to start arriving in September 19, the /2's are not due to start departing until September 20.

Of course that all depends on TPE getting their replacements in service on time (IIRC it's the 397s to Glasgow/Edinburgh), but at this rate, I highly doubt it...

Kite159 · 23 May 2019

_toommm_ said:
Of course that all depends on TPE getting their replacements in service on time (IIRC it's the 397s to Glasgow/Edinburgh), but at this rate, I highly doubt it...

Although it also depends on the contract TPE/West Midlands Railway has with Angel Trains*, as like with the 172/0s in London they could be gone to West Midlands Railways before the new stock arrives.

(* Or whoever the owner is)

bnsf734 · 23 May 2019

Class 350/2 owner is Porterbrook. I believe from what I have read they are on a particularly expensive lease - the more they are used the more they cost. Hence why they are being replaced.

No new home for them yet.

WYSH · 24 May 2019

possible that the 350/2 would be ideal to replace the ageing northern 319s?

JonathanH · 24 May 2019

WYSH said:
possible that the 350/2 would be ideal to replace the ageing northern 319s?

Better to use them, retrofitted with DC power pick up, as replacements for 442s on the South Western Railway network, perhaps repeated with 2+2 seating.

Unfortunately for that idea, the 442s are an Angel Trains fleet while the 350/2s aren't so it probably can't happen.

DarloRich · 24 May 2019

personally I would rather LNWR had all of the 350/s. Let Northern have these adventure things but then, unlike many here, i am a big fan of the class 350.

Bletchleyite · 24 May 2019

DarloRich said:
personally I would rather LNWR had all of the 350/s. Let Northern have these adventure things but then, unlike many here, i am a big fan of the class 350.

Agreed. The most sensible thing to do for LNR would be to bring in all the 360s as well and have a 100% Desiro fleet.

Whistler40145 · 24 May 2019

samuelmorris said:
At the moment, nowhere other than for a small number to be converted for Porterbrook's Battery Flex programme - they'll otherwise be laid up waiting for a user. Entirely possible they'll see use with EMR on the Corby route, but no guarantees at all about that as plenty of other stock is in the same situation.

Could the 350/2s be upgraded to 350/4s?

swt_passenger · 24 May 2019

Whistler40145 said:
Could the 350/2s be upgraded to 350/4s?

Which is basically asking, can the seat layout be changed?

I think the SWR 450s show well that if you throw enough money at Siemens then anything can be done. The ex composite coach in a fully modified 450, has had the two bulkheads either side of first, (with sliding doors) removed, and the guards office removed, and on the one I checked you would hardly realise it had ever been different, there were a few slightly cleaner looking ceiling panels, but that’s all.

samuelmorris · 24 May 2019

Whistler40145 said:
Could the 350/2s be upgraded to 350/4s?

Absolutely, but not being 350/4s isn't why they are being withdrawn - it's leasing rates. Rather than try and renegotiate, LNWR just took their business elsewhere. Presumably after being left with wasted assets, Porterbrook may offer the units for far less to another TOC. If they don't and let 12 year old units rot, then that would be an utter waste, among repurposed 319s and 442s.

Whistler40145 · 24 May 2019

samuelmorris said:
Absolutely, but not being 350/4s isn't why they are being withdrawn - it's leasing rates. Rather than try and renegotiate, LNWR just took their business elsewhere. Presumably after being left with wasted assets, Porterbrook may offer the units for far less to another TOC. If they don't and let 12 year old units rot, then that would be an utter waste, among repurposed 319s and 442s.

It's going to be a very grey area of which TOC could take on the 350/2s with new units on order

Alasdair Clift · 24 May 2019

To me the best place I can see them going is Northern, especially if the BatteryFlex is successful, since Northern have 27 319s currently as well as their 8 769s which, depending on the routes they are planned to serve, could be converted to battery operation, so seems like a good fit as well as giving 2 extra units on top of what they already have. It also helps that both fleets are owned by Porterbrook, and a lot of the tracks 319s currently run on are shared with TPE 350/4s, so hopefully clearance isn't much of an issue. Although, if the rumours of 323s being kept of 319s end up becoming true, then there wouldn't be a need for the whole fleet, and I imagine Porterbrook would rather they didn't split the fleet.

samuelmorris · 24 May 2019

Alasdair Clift said:
To me the best place I can see them going is Northern, especially if the BatteryFlex is successful, since Northern have 27 319s currently as well as their 8 769s which, depending on the routes they are planned to serve, could be converted to battery operation, so seems like a good fit as well as giving 2 extra units on top of what they already have. It also helps that both fleets are owned by Porterbrook, and a lot of the tracks 319s currently run on are shared with TPE 350/4s, so hopefully clearance isn't much of an issue. Although, if the rumours of 323s being kept of 319s end up becoming true, then there wouldn't be a need for the whole fleet, and I imagine Porterbrook would rather they didn't split the fleet.

I think they really only have a home if more electrification happens, or if all the 319s are ultimately converted to 769s and stay away from the wires. There's only so much electrification in Northern's area of operation.

Alasdair Clift · 24 May 2019

samuelmorris said:
I think they really only have a home if more electrification happens, or if all the 319s are ultimately converted to 769s and stay away from the wires. There's only so much electrification in Northern's area of operation.

It does seem that way. Doubt the battery units would be able to go all the way to Barrow and back from what I've heard, otherwise they'd be a good fit for Northern's WCML services from Manchester. At the moment though, the only place the whole fleet can really go is to replace the 319s

hwl · 24 May 2019

The 442 at SWR are only on lease till 2024 which would allow the 350/2 leaving LM in ~2022 to have a very early in next franchise introduction there with little risk of delayed introduction and time for shoe fitting and overhaul.

The industry appears to be a bit tired of stock not being released on time hence sensible gap is good if you aren't a ROSCO (though refurbs would be cheaper is done at a less hectic pace)

Alasdair Clift · 24 May 2019

hwl said:
The 442 at SWR are only on lease till 2024 which would allow the 350/2 leaving LM in ~2022 to have a very early in next franchise introduction there with little risk of delayed introduction and time for shoe fitting and overhaul.

The industry appears to be a bit tired of stock not being released on time hence sensible gap is good if you aren't a ROSCO (though refurbs would be cheaper is done at a less hectic pace)

Seems a bit of a waste after all the work done to do them up. Besides, I can't really see why SWR would want to replace 5x23m intercity-style sets with 4x20m commuter sets, especially considering the 442s are owned by Angel whilst the 350/2s are owned by Porterbrook

hwl · 24 May 2019

Alasdair Clift said:
Seems a bit of a waste after all the work done to do them up. Besides, I can't really see why SWR would want to replace 5x23m intercity-style sets with 4x20m commuter sets, especially considering the 442s are owned by Angel whilst the 350/2s are owned by Porterbrook

That is why it would be next Franchise post 2024. Dwell times and lack of SDO are/ will be an issue on 442s even after retractioning. 3x450 is just over 10m longer than 442 and has more seats/standing space.

Alasdair Clift · 24 May 2019

hwl said:
That is why it would be next Franchise post 2024. Dwell times and lack of SDO are/ will be an issue on 442s even after retractioning. 3x450 is just over 10m longer than 442 and has more seats/standing space.

I see, makes sense. Still would like to see them up in the North, although that's probably because they'd be my locals then, and they wouldn't necessarily have to get rid of the 3+2 seating then since the 319s already run with 3+2, although I rarely see all three seats being used at once

hwl · 24 May 2019

Alasdair Clift said:
I see, makes sense. Still would like to see them up in the North, although that's probably because they'd be my locals then, and they wouldn't necessarily have to get rid of the 3+2 seating then since the 319s already run with 3+2, although I rarely see all three seats being used at once

One of Northern biggest issues is it Rolling stock zoo - fewer stock types would help

Alasdair Clift · 24 May 2019

hwl said:
One of Northern biggest issues is it Rolling stock zoo - fewer stock types would help

It wouldn't be adding new stock if they're used to replace the 319s as right now the 319s are unique on this side of the Pennines

DannyMich2018 · 24 May 2019

Uses for the Class 350/2's could be:
In Scotland (either extra capacity or to replace Class 318, although their 4-car formations mean no multiple working), Northern as said in this post to replace Class 319 or even any of South Western Railway, Southern or South Eastern either to provided extra capacity or replace some such as Class 313 or 465? Yes the Class 350/2 are dual voltage capable as 350/1 have worked on the southern briefly in the past. All in all plenty of options and for trains which are less than 10 years old will not be hanging around spare for long.

gingertom · 24 May 2019

DannyMich2018 said:
Uses for the Class 350/2's could be:
In Scotland (either extra capacity or to replace Class 318, although their 4-car formations mean no multiple working), Northern as said in this post to replace Class 319 or even any of South Western Railway, Southern or South Eastern either to provided extra capacity or replace some such as Class 313 or 465? Yes the Class 350/2 are dual voltage capable as 350/1 have worked on the southern briefly in the past. All in all plenty of options and for trains which are less than 10 years old will not be hanging around spare for long.

did I read that all 350 subclasses are now 110mph capable? If that is indeed the case then the /2s could be useful on the Edinburgh ECML locals. Or a further trim of the Edinburgh-Glasgow if they ever get around to increasing the linespeed, although I accept replacing hte brand new 385s with older 350s wouldn't go down too well.

anamyd · 2 Jun 2019

gingertom said:
did I read that all 350 subclasses are now 110mph capable? If that is indeed the case then the /2s could be useful on the Edinburgh ECML locals. Or a further trim of the Edinburgh-Glasgow if they ever get around to increasing the linespeed, although I accept replacing hte brand new 385s with older 350s wouldn't go down too well.

yes, the 350/2s got uprated to 110mph last year I believe.

Transfer of TPE 350/4s to West Midlands Trains (LNR)

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