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London to Norwich - 90 min timings

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47421

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Norwich in 90 is a start, but by way of reminder GA made the following timetable enhancement commitments, lets see what they are able to deliver overall

Changes TSR2 (May 2019) to TSR3 (May 2020) on weekdays are:

Sudbury extended through to Colchester Town x17 and from Colchester Town x 14
Lowestoft to Ipswich extended through to Liv St x4
Ipswich to Peterborough increased from 8 TPD to 16 TPD of which 13 to start / terminate at Colchester [abandoned UFN cus of level crossing issues]
Norwich to Yarmouth up from 22 TPD to 28 TPD
Norwich to Sheringham up from 17 to 19 TPD
Norwich to Cambridge increases from 17 TPD (15 to/from Stansted Airport) to 18 TPD (17 to/from Stansted Airport)
LivSt to Harlow Town and Bishops Stortford extra TPH off peak


TSR 3 also includes the following minimum journey time requirements below, and also includes the other enhancements due per TSR2 May 19 eg LivSt Ipswich semi fast extended to Norwich hourly all day, and extra TPH off peak to Southend and Hertford East.

Also the press release at time of franchise award, in the same sentence as Ni90 said Camb in 61 and Southend in 47:

"More services and faster journeys, with journey times falling on average 10%. Headline improvements include two ‘Norwich in 90’ trains each way to/from London every day. Faster services from Ipswich and Colchester to London and faster journey times from London to Southend - falling to 47 minutes and to Cambridge in 61 minutes."​




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30907

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The journey time issue for commuters only affects the 1900 down and the related services:
Benefit to Ipswich and Norwich - say 400 pax @ 12 min each (Norwich)/4 min (Ipswich) compared with former best (1700), assume 50/50 split so average 400x 8min
Disbenefit to stations as far as Witham/Braintree and Southend - nil
Disbenefit to Kelvedon/Marks Tey/Colchester: one train takes 3 min longer - generously assuming half full, 600× 3 min.
Disbenefit to Clacton line mentioned upthread - one train, 7 mins, maybe 200 pax?
Thus far the time gains and losses balance out (exactly as it happens, that wasn't planned!).
(Plus additional seats available to Colchester etc on 1902 - say 200)

(What can't be calculated, of course, is the disbenefit to passengers whose train leaves earlier or later and takes more/less time, and I haven't time to check every station).
 

dk1

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The extension of the Sudbury services was never going to happen not only due to the pathing & performance issues it would cause but continued use over the foot crossing from the car park would never be permitted.

Others have all been put back. Improvements should start happening (there's that word again :lol:) in December 2020 or May 2021.
 

dk1

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That pesky 1K45 departed Southend Vic 4L today thus allowing the flagship express to sail through Shenfield ahead of it once again. Perhaps this could be a permanent daily modification to the schedule.
 

eastdyke

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That pesky 1K45 departed Southend Vic 4L today thus allowing the flagship express to sail through Shenfield ahead of it once again. Perhaps this could be a permanent daily modification to the schedule.
4L for IK45 seems to work for the Clacton IN31 as well, that was RT into both Stratford and Liverpool Street <(
 

Carlgoss

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So last night 17.31 at Ipswich, hand on door handle I was about to open the door at the moment of unlock.. and a shout from outside of 'I've got it' and a nudge of my hand off the door handle. One of the 'extra' platform staff for the NIN's. No sooner had I taken the first step through the door opening than a really LOUD whistle blow which blew my ruddy head off, and a massive SLAM of the door. Dwell time must have been 10 seconds from unlock click to whistle! And then all the staff walkie talkies declaring . 'I can confirm we got it out on time'. Crikey. I know they're keen but.. I'm waiting for them to start pushing passengers into the entrances next!! (ala Japan)
 

Dave1987

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That pesky 1K45 departed Southend Vic 4L today thus allowing the flagship express to sail through Shenfield ahead of it once again. Perhaps this could be a permanent daily modification to the schedule.

That would mean a 15 min gap in anything going from Shenfield to towards London on the Up main and a 20 min gap in services stopping at Shenfield. Just to give the flagship a clear run to get into Liv St a couple of mins early? Come on we are stretching things a bit here. A 15 min gap on GEML to ensure the flagship has a completely clear run is wasting already limited capacity. In 15 mins you can fit around 5 services in between Shenfield and Stratford.
 
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Railperf

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Yes i was thinking the Nin90 drivers are getting too carried away by arriving at Shenfield 2 to 3 min early - but if the Southend is frequently going to be late - then it is a good opportunity to get the Nin90 through and in early - why not? Extra 5 mins for a cuppa or a nap at LST. I would
 

Railperf

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That would mean a 15 min gap in anything going from Shenfield to towards London on the Up main and a 20 min gap in services stopping at Shenfield. Just to give the flagship a clear run to get into Liv St a couple of mins early? Come on we are stretching things a bit here. A 15 min gap on GEML to ensure the flagship has a completely clear run is wasting already limited capacity. In 15 mins you can fit around 5 services in between Shenfield and Stratford.
In reality, the N in 90 needs to be pathed 3 mins behind 1K45 at Bethnal Green, so prob 4 to 5 mins behind at Shenfield rather than the current 3 min. But if the Southend is going to be frequently late..maybe retime 1K45 to leave Southend 5 mins earlier so that it gets to Shenfield RT.
 

Railperf

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The 11:00 encountering a delay between Ipswich and Diss..looks like a late arrival back at Norwich today..
 

eastdyke

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In reality, the N in 90 needs to be pathed 3 mins behind 1K45 at Bethnal Green, so prob 4 to 5 mins behind at Shenfield rather than the current 3 min. But if the Southend is going to be frequently late..maybe retime 1K45 to leave Southend 5 mins earlier so that it gets to Shenfield RT.
IK45 has been 4L at Shenfield twice this week.
Tuesday IK45 lost most of the time in the Rayleigh area, today it was 4L off Southend.
I think we can say that a picture is beginning to emerge of where things might go wrong, in practice rather than theory, but not much of it amounts to anything other than 'random normal' events affecting a busy operational railway. There will be much more to come!

What has already been noted elsewhere is that time seems to be regularly lost between Ipswich and Stowmarket on the down. Timings may be too tight, not helped to the tune of part of a minute by the ongoing TSR50 near Needham Market.
Another place where things are very tight is on the down approaching Ipswich. I have seen a couple of times that a late running up Norwich-LST has then caused delay to the departure of the Ipswich-LST stopper which has to use the down line through the tunnel to Halifax Junction just prior to the arrival of the 'fast'.
This event checked 9P90 this morning.
 

eastdyke

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That would mean a 15 min gap in anything going from Shenfield to towards London on the Up main and a 20 min gap in services stopping at Shenfield. Just to give the flagship a clear run to get into Liv St a couple of mins early? Come on we are stretching things a bit here. A 15 min gap on GEML to ensure the flagship has a completely clear run is wasting already limited capacity. In 15 mins you can fit around 5 services in between Shenfield and Stratford.
How many PAX will be at Shenfield waiting for the Southend for travel into London?
And how many of those will transfer to XRail when the core opens with 10tph off-peak?
 

Dave1987

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How many PAX will be at Shenfield waiting for the Southend for travel into London?
And how many of those will transfer to XRail when the core opens with 10tph off-peak?

Er lots. The XRail trains are very lightly loaded from Shenfield until you get to at least Harold Wood. On a very crowded line it’s madness IMO to have a 15 min buffer of no trains using the main line towards London just to give the Flagship a chance to get to London a few mins early.
 

eastdyke

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Er lots. The XRail trains are very lightly loaded from Shenfield until you get to at least Harold Wood. On a very crowded line it’s madness IMO to have a 15 min buffer of no trains using the main line towards London just to give the Flagship a chance to get to London a few mins early.
Sure, that's now, but when the XRail core (eventually!) opens?
 

Dave1987

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Sure, that's now, but when the XRail core (eventually!) opens?

So people are going to travel from Shenfield on XRail to Stratford and Liverpool St once the tunnels open? I doubt that. It would take them a good 20 mins longer than catching a mainline service.
 

Ianno87

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So people are going to travel from Shenfield on XRail to Stratford and Liverpool St once the tunnels open? I doubt that. It would take them a good 20 mins longer than catching a mainline service.

Well if you turn up just at the start of a big gap in Fast services it'd potentially be worth it.
 

Bald Rick

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So last night 17.31 at Ipswich, hand on door handle I was about to open the door at the moment of unlock.. and a shout from outside of 'I've got it' and a nudge of my hand off the door handle. One of the 'extra' platform staff for the NIN's. No sooner had I taken the first step through the door opening than a really LOUD whistle blow which blew my ruddy head off, and a massive SLAM of the door. Dwell time must have been 10 seconds from unlock click to whistle! And then all the staff walkie talkies declaring . 'I can confirm we got it out on time'. Crikey. I know they're keen but.. I'm waiting for them to start pushing passengers into the entrances next!! (ala Japan)

And that’s how it should be everywhere. Particularly on Thameslink and the Castlefield corridor!
 

Railperf

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Update. 17.00 en route but was on the coat tails of 2L79 Peterborough Ipswich 4 late at Needham Market.
 

LAX54

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Update. 17.00 en route but was on the coat tails of 2L79 Peterborough Ipswich 4 late at Needham Market.

1700 X Nch RT Stowmarket. 1 Early Ips, 1 Early Col. 3 Early Witham 2 Early Bow RT Liverpool Street.

I agree the timings of the 1900 down are a bit tight, the train is timed 1 min quicker Ipswich to Stowmarket than the 1700, but always drops a minute or 2 (or so it has so far !) also the 1900 at Ipswich is so tight with 1P56, 4M92, 1Y61, 1Y36, you can see the Siggie 'sweating' ! LOL
 

Railperf

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1700 X Nch RT Stowmarket. 1 Early Ips, 1 Early Col. 3 Early Witham 2 Early Bow RT Liverpool Street.

I agree the timings of the 1900 down are a bit tight, the train is timed 1 min quicker Ipswich to Stowmarket than the 1700, but always drops a minute or 2 (or so it has so far !) also the 1900 at Ipswich is so tight with 1P56, 4M92, 1Y61, 1Y36, you can see the Siggie 'sweating' ! LOL
Yes..looks like they tried letting 1y36 into ipswich early..but that delayed 1y61 coming out of ipswich and clearing the down main..delaying the N in 90 in the process. Solution might be to set the 1Y61 out a bit earlier so that 1y36 comes thru earlier and does not have to sit awaiting 1y61 to clear the road ahead of it.
 

Railperf

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1700 X Nch RT Stowmarket. 1 Early Ips, 1 Early Col. 3 Early Witham 2 Early Bow RT Liverpool Street.

I agree the timings of the 1900 down are a bit tight, the train is timed 1 min quicker Ipswich to Stowmarket than the 1700, but always drops a minute or 2 (or so it has so far !) also the 1900 at Ipswich is so tight with 1P56, 4M92, 1Y61, 1Y36, you can see the Siggie 'sweating' ! LOL
There are 2 more 50mph TSRs due to come in force at Stowmarket on the up and down main lines shortly ..if they haven't already bern added.
 

Nick Nation

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Friday's timings - 87, 91, 90, 92. So not bad, but there are issues around Ipswich particularly.
 

Bikeman78

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A grand day out it was. There’s no doubt that a lot of effort is going into getting these four trains right. I just hope that doesn’t mean less attention elsewhere? Last night two consecutive slow Liverpool Street to Cambridge services were cancelled, meaning no service for 90 minutes at stations such as Elsenham and Newport (Essex). No other services were pulled in to compensate. West Anglia commuters are generally displeased because all 12 car trains in the peaks on the route seem to have disappeared since Monday.
There are still three 12 cars from and to Cambridge but all the Stansteds have reverted to eight car 379s. One of the displaced 317s does Cambridge to Stansted all day; not sure about the other one. Unfortunately the new diagrams are based on 745/755s being in traffic and the resulting juggling of existing units to cover the work probably means they are used less efficiently.
 

eastdyke

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So people are going to travel from Shenfield on XRail to Stratford and Liverpool St once the tunnels open? I doubt that. It would take them a good 20 mins longer than catching a mainline service.
I agree with you in the case of Pax for Westfield or a coffee meeting at Liverpool Street but for those going into Central London and for many other onward connections XRail has key advantages such as:
10tph = turn up and go, guaranteed seat and alongside any family or travelling companions, 1 less interchange to underground.
I reckon that when the XRail core opens that there will be noticeably fewer Pax for the GA services at Shenfield.
 

Class 170101

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The revenue is in your season ticket holders commuting. That’s a must have for the route, without that the route is doomed. So I would disagree where the revenue is, it’s south of Ipswich.

Don’t forget that journey times on the routes south of Essex have crept up. Remember the fast Ipswich, last stop Chelmsford? Long gone. So journey times here have been eroded over time too.

A minute isn’t here or there, but this exercise hasn’t taken a minute or two, it’s taken a lot more over the breadth of services that have had to be re-timed.

In economic terms that is how is measured, by the minute. So one minute does make a difference.

1700 X Nch RT Stowmarket. 1 Early Ips, 1 Early Col. 3 Early Witham 2 Early Bow RT Liverpool Street.

I agree the timings of the 1900 down are a bit tight, the train is timed 1 min quicker Ipswich to Stowmarket than the 1700, but always drops a minute or 2 (or so it has so far !) also the 1900 at Ipswich is so tight with 1P56, 4M92, 1Y61, 1Y36, you can see the Siggie 'sweating' ! LOL

Yes..looks like they tried letting 1y36 into ipswich early..but that delayed 1y61 coming out of ipswich and clearing the down main..delaying the N in 90 in the process. Solution might be to set the 1Y61 out a bit earlier so that 1y36 comes thru earlier and does not have to sit awaiting 1y61 to clear the road ahead of it.

4M92 needs to pass through Ipswich one minute earlier in my experience. Can it pass Ipswich Station at 19:46 instead of 19:47? That would help 1Y61 to ensure a right time start surely
 
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