anamyd
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where were the 395s assembled...? Certainly not in Newton Aycliffe!
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New trains for East Midlands Franchise
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cactustwirly
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Nope the trains are maintained by Hitachi.
The GWR HSTs appeared to be well maintained
cactustwirly
Established Member
Kasado (Japan)
anamyd
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thanks, well there you go
squizzler
Established Member
Rather than adding more diesels than previous AT300 to meet the power requirements, should Hitachi not be thinking of onboard battery storage using their previously developed Hyabusa technology?
43096
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“Appeared” being the operative word.
cactustwirly
Established Member
Well as a traveling passenger, the interior was clean and tidy, and there weren't any rattles or anything like that
Battery wouldn't help address the performance issues in this case so no.
A few thoughts on detail of Bombardier and Hitachi options.
For larger orders the cost of / car electric only with no maintenance is :
Bombardier 24m car ~£1.40m
Hitachi 26m IEP car ~£1.71m
So for a ~240m train
Bombardier 10 car £14m
Hitachi 9car £15.4m
So before worrying about diesel power Bombardier are ~ 30-35 tonnes lighter and £1.4m cheaper.
The MTU rafts are ~£700K each including 27.5years maintenance so being lighter initially reduces the diesel power requirement.
For larger orders the cost of / car electric only with no maintenance is :
Bombardier 24m car ~£1.40m
Hitachi 26m IEP car ~£1.71m
So for a ~240m train
Bombardier 10 car £14m
Hitachi 9car £15.4m
So before worrying about diesel power Bombardier are ~ 30-35 tonnes lighter and £1.4m cheaper.
The MTU rafts are ~£700K each including 27.5years maintenance so being lighter initially reduces the diesel power requirement.
squizzler
Established Member
cactustwirly
Established Member
Bombardier have existing maintenance facilities at Etches Park, whereas the nearest Hitachi facility is Doncaster Carr.
The quote in that post says "last mile battery" is being considered.
Battery can provide a useful performance boost to diesel when there are a reasonable number of stops but there are too few stops on IC MML services (assuming electrification to Market Harborough) for it to make a significant difference to timings (may be 90-120s from St Pancras to Sheffield).
The largest battery (or rather 4 packs of them) that integrates with the MTU rafts off the shelf could provide about 50% of the energy to get you to 125mph from standing start so a useful boost (assuming the batteries don't degrade) but you then have to have the power from Diesel to maintain that and regenerative braking is only like to half charge the those 4 packs so some of the charging will have to be done on diesel when it isn't on full load.
The most useful battery application is probably actually allowing engine shutdown to reduce emissions.
The unelectrified distance is likely to be 165miles per round trip which is way beyond what battery can do.
If you are very near the threshold performance level battery will help
Battery Hydrid would make a big difference for XC performance especially 170 replacement than MML IC.
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Jozhua
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Batteries are a heavy, inefficient storage medium. A bi-mode diesel would be the most sensible option for this use case.
If you want electric, 25kv is the sensible option, apart from some specific use cases.
If you want electric, 25kv is the sensible option, apart from some specific use cases.
Richard Ingram
Member
But a battery hybrid wouldn't have to run on battery alone, the power could be added to the diesel power for when they need max power, and recharged from the diesel when the engines would otherwise be run at less than peak efficiency. I have driven my mum's hybrid car in Snowdonia, and it handled the steep hills better than anything else I have ever driven.
With computers managing how many generators are running and what power they are producing, you could possibly manage a very fuel efficient setup, with a maximum power capability greater than all GU's running at full power.
The weight, and space requirements for this might be it's undoing though. No use adding batteries if it takes up the space of a GU.
I wasn't suggesting battery alone just pointing out it helps deliver the extra energy to get you to 125mph in the same time as on 25kV in an IEP type under powered on diesel scenario but it can't help you maintain it, to maintain that speed you need more GUs. Hence battery might be useful if you added an extra GU and you were still of short of enough power under acceleration to make the difference.
Real running at higher speed isn't actually that helpful as regards engine drive cycles and significant battery charging. GPS fencing and C-DAS needed to make it work well in practice (See Porterbrook and Angel trials coming soon)
The franchise also has commitments to improve air quality so battery recharging in stations won't help with those targets!
edwin_m
Veteran Member
A lot of that difference may be because each car of the Hitachi units is almost certainly built to a common design with the structural strength to support the diesel raft whether fitted or not.
All the Aventras to date have been standard EMU with no need of these features, and I imagine have omitted the extra structure to save weight. So the cars with diesel engines, which is likely to be most of them, are probably going to be heavier than the electric versions even before the weight of the raft itself is taken into account. Cost-wise the extra metal doesn't make much difference, but they may have design and approvals to do including crashworthiness issues.
Richard Ingram
Member
Sorry, read the bit about largest battery packs as using them alone. I don't know what the power requirements are for maintaining 125mph, but surely the current IEP's can do that without batteries, and a combination of regen braking and running some or all of the GU's during deceleration or downhill would hopefully be enough to charge the batteries. You wouldn't need large battery packs, just enough to boost the acceleration when needed. And I assume in stations, the IEP shuts down all but 1 of the Gu's for hotel power, and running that a little harder, and more efficiently to add charge if needed would not be too bad.
I know, a lot of variables to consider, and I don't know the track profile on this line. I have no idea what would be best.
On the Hitachi IEPs the non driving cars all have the floors to take the rafts.
One of the big advantages on mass is actually that Bombardiers ability to have inside frame bogies on both powered and unpowered bogies whereas IEP has all outside frame bogies (and 385 have a mix of inside (unpowered) and outside (motor) frame bogies).
The bombardier floor is designed to be as standard as possible and flexible to take components as needed (e.g. battery retrofit).
And so are the Javelins!
cactustwirly
Established Member
The largest battery pack would bridge the difference between diesel and 25KV on IEP.
The MML is much hillier than the WCML (South of Carlisle) / ECML and with much more repeated up and down bits hence frequent bouts of needing more power than on the level to maintain 125mph.
You need all the GUs running flat out in the station during the stop to provide a limited top up charge on top of charge regenerative braking...
LOL The Irony
On Moderation
bUt thEy'Re LigHteR. (Light bogies tend to give a rougher for obvious reasons, but you know.)Ooh goody, inside frame bogies, just what you want on a Intercity train!
They seem to work ok on 220s and 222s...Ooh goody, inside frame bogies, just what you want on a Intercity train!
LOL The Irony
On Moderation
Try fitting tripcocks to them.
cactustwirly
Established Member
Not really, they have very firm suspension which isn't suitable for intercity stock
Siemens managed on their inside frame bogies on the 717s
cactustwirly
Established Member
What tf do tripcocks have to with anything.
The MML will go nowhere near the Aylesbury/Northern City lines
squizzler
Established Member
Deutche Bahn have them on the non-motored cars of their IC4 and Siemens have them on their brand new Velaro Novo platform, but hey, what would they know?Ooh goody, inside frame bogies, just what you want on a Intercity train!
The non motored ones on the ICE4 are BR Mk5 suburban bogies from Bombardier... and one of the reasons for the partnership as Siemens were told to use those bogies.
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