• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

SouthEastern franchise direct award through to 1 April 2020 (& franchise competition terminated)

Status
Not open for further replies.

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,354
Wasn't the proposal to send all of them into London Cannon Street with all remaining Integrated Kent services going into London Charing Cross?
Which doesn't actually work e.g. Hayes - CHX as parallel moves to future SEML Thameslink at Courthilll/Parks Bridge Jns as TfL didn't think to look at full Thameslink implementation, they didn't realised capacity wasn't already allocated and lots already optimised for that.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

matt_world2004

Established Member
Joined
5 Nov 2014
Messages
4,504
Which doesn't actually work e.g. Hayes - CHX as parallel moves to future SEML Thameslink at Courthilll/Parks Bridge Jns as TfL didn't think to look at full Thameslink implementation, they didn't realised capacity wasn't already allocated and lots already optimised for that.
I believe the plan was to send all the Hayes services into once terminal all the Greenwich services into another etc etc.
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,354
I believe the plan was to send all the Hayes services into once terminal all the Lewisham servuces into another etc etc.
They also had to remove lots of conflicts at Lewisham Jn and allow for significantly more interchange at Lewisham which would need a major rebuild.

The problem was the TfL plans didn't add up (and the latest iteration doesn't either)
 

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
6,830
I believe the plan was to send all the Hayes services into once terminal all the Greenwich services into another etc etc.

Which in the case of Greenwich happened a few years ago, with all the trains going to Cannon Street until the new Thameslink service started!
 

cle

Established Member
Joined
17 Nov 2010
Messages
4,005
All Greenwich into Cannon Street makes sense, and is almost happening. It should be accompanied by frequency increases though - 12tph or so, using Plumstead for turning if required. I'd go further and remove Dartford lines' metro services from Charing Cross.
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,354
All Greenwich into Cannon Street makes sense, and is almost happening. It should be accompanied by frequency increases though - 12tph or so, using Plumstead for turning if required.

Which services on other routes are you going to cut?

Crossrail is/was meant to be providing the extra capacity on the Greewich line by diverting some passengers at Abbey Wood and some current Woolwich users.
 

Jass

Member
Joined
25 Apr 2019
Messages
16
Hopefully this means there will be fasts from new cross to orpington again
 

BluePenguin

On Moderation
Joined
26 Sep 2016
Messages
1,605
Location
Kent
Hopefully this means there will be fasts from new cross to orpington again
I hope that there will be fasts between Ashford and Tonbridge again. I want my fasts back just as much as you want yours, however isn't it the nature of suburban services that they stop everywhere? Not even Gravesend seems to have many services that take much less than an hour and it is much further out.
 

Class 466

Established Member
Joined
5 Mar 2010
Messages
1,408
Hopefully this means there will be fasts from new cross to orpington again
No plans for that - that was always temporary whilst the Tunbridge Wells - Charing X were diverted into Cannon Street from 2015 - Aug 2016.
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,354
No plans for that - that was always temporary whilst the Tunbridge Wells - Charing X were diverted into Cannon Street from 2015 - Aug 2016.
Agreed it certainly doesn't maximise capacity with a fully functional London Bridge (hence non starter).
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,533
Location
Redcar
It's probably nothing, in fact, almost certainly nothing but due diligence on the part of the DfT (stop sniggering at the back :lol:) but I note that DFT OLR2 (i.e. Operator of Last Resort) has had a name change on 22 May 2019 to SE Trains Limited.

Probably nothing at all to it. But still I thought it interesting none the less.
 

jnjkerbin

Member
Joined
25 Apr 2012
Messages
842
Location
Down south
Am I correct in saying no announcement has yet been made confirming that the negotiations to extend from June 23rd til November have been successful, and therefore we may now be looking at an OLR stepping in in just 3 weeks time?
 

ComUtoR

Established Member
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
9,397
Location
UK
OLR1 - London North Eastern Railway (14 Feb 2018) - 49100 - Passenger rail transport, interurban (Type of business)
OLR2 - SE Trains (22 May 2019) - 99999 - Dormant Company (Type of buisness)
OLR3 - DFT OLR3 (20 March 2019) - 99999 - Dormant Company (Previously EM Trains)
OLR4 - DFT OLR4 (20 March 2019) - 99999 - Dormant Company (Previously Transpennine Express)
OLR5 - DFT OLR4 (20 March 2019) - 99999 - Dormant Company (Previously Thameslink)
OLR6 - DFT OLR4 (20 March 2019) - 99999 - Dormant Company (Previously West Coast Mainline)
OLR7 - DFT OLR7 (20 March 2019) - 99999 - Dormant Company (Previously London Midland Trains)


looks just like part of the process.
 
Last edited:

ComUtoR

Established Member
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
9,397
Location
UK
Am I correct in saying no announcement has yet been made confirming that the negotiations to extend from June 23rd til November have been successful, and therefore we may now be looking at an OLR stepping in in just 3 weeks time?

I thought it was already agreed to be until November with an option to next April ? (granted; paperwork pending)

Why/What is the 3 week deadline til the OLR step in ?

Cheers in advance.
 

jnjkerbin

Member
Joined
25 Apr 2012
Messages
842
Location
Down south
I thought it was already agreed to be until November with an option to next April ? (granted; paperwork pending)

Why/What is the 3 week deadline til the OLR step in ?

Cheers in advance.

My impression was that they had confirmed they were to negotiate an extension but there had been no positive confirmation those negotiations had been successful?
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,533
Location
Redcar
looks just like part of the process.

Probably. I just thought it interesting that OLR2 was so named back in March 2018 (having previously been Cross Country between 2015 and 2018) only to suddenly gain it's new name in May 2019. The others being renamed to innocuous OLR3, 4, etc kinda feel like housekeeping.
 

ComUtoR

Established Member
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
9,397
Location
UK
My impression was that they had confirmed they were to negotiate an extension but there had been no positive confirmation those negotiations had been successful?

That's what I believe too. Why would SE/DfT not 'agree' 5 months worth of franchise extension is surely hardly worth haggling over. If they will agree all the way till next April then I could understand a longer renegotiation process. Is this somehow different from being a simple 'direct award' ?

This whole franchise is a complete debacle. Whatever is preventing the DfT from announcing the franchise winner needs to be explained, quite clearly to the passengers.

Probably. I just thought it interesting that OLR2 was so named back in March 2018 (having previously been Cross Country between 2015 and 2018) only to suddenly gain it's new name in May 2019. The others being renamed to innocuous OLR3, 4, etc kinda feel like housekeeping.

I have no idea who is currently running LNER but maybe if it changed from being a 'dormant company' would be more of an eye opener.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,533
Location
Redcar
I have no idea who is currently running LNER but maybe if it changed from being a 'dormant company' would be more of an eye opener.

It was OLR1 which gained its new name in February 2018 (franchise was taken over in June 2018).

Yes I agree that whilst it remains dormant there's no need to get too excited. But we shall see what happens!
 

700007

Established Member
Joined
6 May 2017
Messages
1,195
Location
Near a bunch of sheds that aren't 66s.
OLR1 - London North Eastern Railway (14 Feb 2018) - 49100 - Passenger rail transport, interurban (Type of business)
OLR2 - SE Trains (22 May 2019) - 99999 - Dormant Company (Type of buisness)
OLR3 - DFT OLR3 (20 March 2019) - 99999 - Dormant Company (Previously EM Trains)
OLR4 - DFT OLR4 (20 March 2019) - 99999 - Dormant Company (Previously Transpennine Express)
OLR5 - DFT OLR4 (20 March 2019) - 99999 - Dormant Company (Previously Thameslink)
OLR6 - DFT OLR4 (20 March 2019) - 99999 - Dormant Company (Previously West Coast Mainline)
OLR7 - DFT OLR7 (20 March 2019) - 99999 - Dormant Company (Previously London Midland Trains)


looks just like part of the process.
A hunch imagines these companies were set up in the event the direct awards on these franchises fell through and so OLR would step in if necessary. I imagine it's the same at Southeastern.
It's probably nothing, in fact, almost certainly nothing but due diligence on the part of the DfT (stop sniggering at the back :lol:) but I note that DFT OLR2 (i.e. Operator of Last Resort) has had a name change on 22 May 2019 to SE Trains Limited.

Probably nothing at all to it. But still I thought it interesting none the less.
Hello, are you new here?

Welcome to Rail forums. :D
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,354
That's what I believe too. Why would SE/DfT not 'agree' 5 months worth of franchise extension is surely hardly worth haggling over. If they will agree all the way till next April then I could understand a longer renegotiation process. Is this somehow different from being a simple 'direct award' ?

This whole franchise is a complete debacle. Whatever is preventing the DfT from announcing the franchise winner needs to be explained, quite clearly to the passengers.



I have no idea who is currently running LNER but maybe if it changed from being a 'dormant company' would be more of an eye opener.
Dormancy in this context only really matters at the time of completing the annual confirmation statements and filing accounts with CH hence a 9-21month lag between start of operations and change of status would be expected.

DfT wasn't aware of the cost of having TOC suppliers on short term contracts (for the nth time) being more expensive than long term arrangements and this led to quite a bit of discussion and investigation.

Starting some long term actions needed by the next franchise is probably needed given the plentory of small delays so far after starting the franchising process.

HH recently indicated there was an agreement in principle that would need final checks.
 

markyl

Member
Joined
24 May 2014
Messages
18
Southeastern deal unresolved as deadline approaches

https://t.co/MnkElSAVBK

THE Department for Transport remains locked in talks with Govia over another extension to the Southeastern franchise, barely two weeks before the present contract is due to end.

It was in June 2017 that the DfT announced that four bidders had been shortlisted for South Eastern. They were Govia, Stagecoach, Trenitalia and a consortium of Abellio, East Japan Railway and Mitsui. However, Trenitalia withdrew from the competition two months later to concentrate on East Midlands and West Coast Partnership. In November 2017, the DfT issued the Invitation to Tender to the three surviving bidders.

The DfT has paused the competition since then, partly because of the uncertainty over the future of franchising which has already been made clear by Keith Williams, who is conducting a ‘root and branch’ review of the railway industry.

Transport secretary Chris Grayling announced on 10 April that ‘my department is negotiating a short-term extension to the current franchise agreement with Govia while we make a decision on the competition’.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

NorthKent1989

Established Member
Joined
13 May 2017
Messages
1,898
From the murky depths has this to say, it’ll be like the mid 2000s all over again at this rate!

https://www.fromthemurkydepths.co.u...utheastern-if-no-extension-agreement-reached/


The Government could step in and install a DfT-owned operator to run the Southeastern franchise from 23rd June if no agreement is made by the Conservative government to once again extend the current franchise with GoVia for another year.

The Government taking over has happened before when Connex were forced to stop services in 2003 after financial mismanagement. That lasted until 2006 when current operators GoVia took control and fare rises of RPI+3% were introduced each year – which was stipulated by the Labour government at the time.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

4-SUB 4732

Established Member
Joined
7 Jan 2018
Messages
2,150
Not surprised at all.

We can expect some fudge job and no new stock, again, I suppose...
 

ComUtoR

Established Member
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
9,397
Location
UK
If negotiation fails (I don't think it will) and GoVia step away from the franchise; what happens to the actual franchise competition ? That is still yet to be declared. Surely if the DfT planned to award GoVia the Franchise then the quicker the better. If GoVia aren't going to get the franchise then I understand that they will, and should, milk the DfT for every little penny.
 

700007

Established Member
Joined
6 May 2017
Messages
1,195
Location
Near a bunch of sheds that aren't 66s.
If negotiation fails (I don't think it will) and GoVia step away from the franchise; what happens to the actual franchise competition ? That is still yet to be declared. Surely if the DfT planned to award GoVia the Franchise then the quicker the better. If GoVia aren't going to get the franchise then I understand that they will, and should, milk the DfT for every little penny.
This is a very good point because we could go from an awkward situation of having Govia operated Southeastern to for a few weeks / months / an eternity at the rate DfT are going before going back to a Govia operated Southeastern.
 

4-SUB 4732

Established Member
Joined
7 Jan 2018
Messages
2,150
If negotiation fails (I don't think it will) and GoVia step away from the franchise; what happens to the actual franchise competition ? That is still yet to be declared. Surely if the DfT planned to award GoVia the Franchise then the quicker the better. If GoVia aren't going to get the franchise then I understand that they will, and should, milk the DfT for every little penny.
As far as I’m aware the franchise competition is ‘paused’, with the DfT having already passed risk onto bidders that it can be cancelled at any time with no reimbursement of cost.

Thus, assuming the talks do collapse, the DfT simply cancels the contest citing any other reasons (including Williams) and does it all again.
 

Shug

Member
Joined
23 May 2017
Messages
44
Less than two weeks until the end of the franchise with no news. What’s everybody backing, contract extension signature or the introduction of the OLR?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top