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Thameslink Services / Timetable from 18 May 2019
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bramling
Veteran Member
From memory I think that’s right, I’m on holiday at the moment so don’t have the details to hand. From what I remember it’s the diagram which includes the (new) 0603 KX to Cambridge. Because of the alterations associated with the morning Royston reverser, it gets tied up in that and then drops onto what were 12-car circuits in the old timetable. So in other words some people will find their service reduces in length from this week - although yes they will now have 2tph so swings and roundabouts, but hardly a good use of track capacity in the peaks.
From playing on Simsig this timetable should be a little smoother than the last as it’s had a certain amount of refinement. Still a horror during disruption though, and in the longer term I think they will need to do something with the Baldock reversers - either reverse at Letchworth or a new siding turn back at Baldock.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...om-may-20th-2018.164547/page-187#post-3823813
was the posting from back in January for the new timetable but I haven't checked it since.
AFJF
New Member
In the Thameslink consultation, I’m sure I recall the Brighton<>Cambridge services as being 2tph all evening south of the Thames, but they currently reduce to 1tph after the PM peak. I haven’t got a copy of the consultation proposals, so can anyone tell me if I imagined this or not. The reason I ask is because I’m a shift worker and the times of the 2nd Cambridge services would fit in well with some of my work start/finish times. Thanks.
ashkeba
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Yes, not imagined. Both GTR's bid proposal and Network Rail RUS showed 2tph "all day" to Cambridge, but with different south bank routings. I guess the question is: does "all day" include evenings?
tsr
Established Member
Suspect car outside during the evening peak at about 1815. All cleared and reopened but the 25-30ish minute closure ruined enough driver changeovers that the house of cards collapsed (and that’s without the issues with the OHLE near Retford causing congestion).
Wasn't it always intended on at least one day of the weekend for rainham services to only go to Kentish town ?
Takes the position of the missing Orpington weekend service I guess
I imagine in December the Orpington service will go to weekends with the peak sevenoaks to welwyn being introduced enhancing the catford loop
Ashford is surely next year although the depot is there with drivers passing to sevenoaks
Would be good if the East Croydon to Milton Keynes Southern service were to transfer to Thameslink.
Service could be operated by 8-car 700/0 stock, with additional order for 12-car 700/1 stock as replacement on MML & GN.
Southern could then utilise displaced 377 stock to strengthen existing 8-car services to 12-car.
Service could be operated by 8-car 700/0 stock, with additional order for 12-car 700/1 stock as replacement on MML & GN.
Southern could then utilise displaced 377 stock to strengthen existing 8-car services to 12-car.
Aictos
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Exactly, although sounds attractive as TL be serving 3 mainlines north of London I can’t see it being done.
700007
Established Member
In fair honesty same could be said for incumbent Southern....
swt_passenger
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8 car stock could be provided all day by Southern just as easily, and it could also be run half hourly by Southern. Both have been proposed already in route utilisation studies. In any case, changing the responsible TOC doesn’t automatically guarantee change if rolling stock, especially if it’s almost brand new...
Anyway, the last few posts including this reply should probably be in “speculation”, where the “WLL as Thameslink” subject was last covered in January...
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...o-milton-keynes-be-part-of-thameslink.176503/
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tsr
Established Member
Used to be the case - but it’s an 8 car service all day now, and there’s precious little time between the shoulder-peak hours for the extra trains to go and do something useful elsewhere. They’ve suffered a fair bit of vandalism on the WLL recently (in common with many of the GTR routes, unfortunately), so they need all the time they can get on depots anyway!
At the moment, the 8 coach formations cope admirably in the peaks for the most part (bearing in mind that whilst the West London section is busy, it doesn’t cater for any main London terminals or even really any central business areas of London). In fact, they do a little too well, as they tend to cart fresh air around north of Hemel. I wouldn’t be surprised if the business case for running such long trains north of Watford is actually quite poor, especially off-peak when it really is dead quiet. In this case I wouldn’t be surprised to see a reshuffle of stock and TOC so that perhaps it does eventually run as a Watford service only. Trouble is, running past most of the Watford DC stations would make it confusing for the Overground model, LNR/WMT probably don’t want it, and Southern have long had the crews and depot space, even if it heads wildly off-area...
tsr
Established Member
Trains which had crew to take them north or south of Finsbury Park without a crew change were allowed through where possible. Trains requiring a crew change (ie. lots of them) were terminated short and this also caused congestion.
I definitely think that any increases in frequency should be to Watford only. That said, it is useful in providing a semi-fast service and uplift for the likes of Wembley Central and Harrow - Bushey could be added I guess if able to be pathed, but that is more of a 'country' station in feel. So perhaps no further than Tring (or the old Hemel bay) - and it provides the local service, enabling others to skip stop a bit more.
You would hope, but nothing being said yet about route learning.
Don't forget ATO needs 'doing' so this could come first! (4 day course x how many drivers?)
The rumour mill is now 2022
If the reasons for the delay are to be believed then they could, in theory, resolve it in a few weeks. I get the impression that there is more behind it than what has been reported and that there is/will be a bit of a political football being kicked around.
Unit availability not being up to required levels (still...)? Or Kings Cross rebuild politics?
ashkeba
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Is there any sign of "Cambridge in 45" returning or has the addition of Thameslink services killed that forever?
I couldn't say if unit availability is a problem but they are still struggling for space this side of the water so I'd suspect it isn't number of units and more about where to put them. Just one of any problems.
I don't know anything about Kings Cross.
Irrespective of the timetabling issues, it's only just possible within the laws of physics on green signals!
bramling
Veteran Member
WAGN attempted it, indeed I seem to remember a short blockade in the late 90s (?) which replaced the last remaining jointed track on the branch, and I think may have introduced some small line speed improvements - all this was accompanied by publicity stating non-stop trains would be sped up from 49 minutes to 45 minutes.
Can’t remember if they ever managed to achieve such a timetable in reality, however if they did then things soon slipped back. In reality the timings are heavily influenced by catching up with something else somewhere or other. The Hitchin flyover possibly doesn’t help either.
The Down expresses on Sundays were timetabled for 45 minutes under FCC before the Hitchin flyover opened. In my experience it was possible, but rarely achieved. I think the quickest run I experienced was about 44 minutes and 45 seconds. Around 45 minutes and 30 seconds was more usual for a clear run though.
After Hitchin opened a minute was added to these trips.
Now they are timetabled for 47 (followed by an over-generous 6 minutes to split off the KLN portion) - which, without looking extensively at the timetable, is probably the quickest available.
The corresponding Up services were always timetabled for a few minutes longer, presumably in part to allow for congestion into KGX. Even then, I found it rare to arrive on-time at KGX, usually a few minutes late or more.
After Hitchin opened a minute was added to these trips.
Now they are timetabled for 47 (followed by an over-generous 6 minutes to split off the KLN portion) - which, without looking extensively at the timetable, is probably the quickest available.
The corresponding Up services were always timetabled for a few minutes longer, presumably in part to allow for congestion into KGX. Even then, I found it rare to arrive on-time at KGX, usually a few minutes late or more.
So, tomorrow, we should finally get a sensible Saturday service back on the GN side.
Or, well, mostly. The Ely to KGX will now take about 75 minutes rather than 100. Still, compared to the about 70 minutes it took before last year, that's still a step backwards. It still sits at Cambridge for 9 minutes for no obvious reason.
Plus there is still only one stopper an hour from Cambridge. The other terminates at Royston (why?).
It will be interesting to see if GN now get business back at Cambridge that they appear to have lost over the past year to the GA Liverpool Street services. The LST trains have been much busier leaving CBG on weekends this past year than they were before.
Or, well, mostly. The Ely to KGX will now take about 75 minutes rather than 100. Still, compared to the about 70 minutes it took before last year, that's still a step backwards. It still sits at Cambridge for 9 minutes for no obvious reason.
Plus there is still only one stopper an hour from Cambridge. The other terminates at Royston (why?).
It will be interesting to see if GN now get business back at Cambridge that they appear to have lost over the past year to the GA Liverpool Street services. The LST trains have been much busier leaving CBG on weekends this past year than they were before.
I wouldn't bank on Saturday being great, driver shortages will cause numerous cancellations. These are mainly confined to the Peterborough and Moorgates at present though so Ely / Cambridge may be okay.
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