Stevenage platform 5

Aictos · 21 Feb 2019

malc-c said:
I popped down with the camera to make a small update. Spoke to one of the engineers there who were surveying and asked if the track was due to be laid this August. He neither confirmed or denied it !

To be fair, he's not really in a position to confirm or deny anything as he just knows what he gets told and maybe he doesn't know the answer?

I look forward to see it become a reality though even if it is in my own view over a decade late!

RailUK Forums

Class 170101 · 21 Feb 2019

Aictos said:
Indeed especially when you consider that Hertford Loop services no longer start back from Letchworth but Stevenage so it's easier to accept Oyster as you have said.

It just would need validators to be installed at Watton At Stone, Bayford and Cuffley as I believe and I may be wrong but Hertford North won't be having them as the existing gateline will be modified to accept Oyster as they already accept the Key.

Probably also needed for stations between Stevenage and Welwyn Garden City (or wherever the current Oyster boundary is on the Welwyn route).

Aictos · 22 Feb 2019

Class 170101 said:
Probably also needed for stations between Stevenage and Welwyn Garden City (or wherever the current Oyster boundary is on the Welwyn route).

Oyster is going no further then Hertford North or Welwyn Garden City at the moment so no need for any validators to be installed at Stevenage, Knebworth, Welwyn North or Watton At Stone as HFN/WGC will be the boundary of Oyster so anyone travelling from the latter 4 stations will just need a Boundary ticket ie a Stevenage to Hertford Stations then a travelcard.

I await to be correct on the fares side but that is how I see it happening.

Fred26 · 22 Feb 2019

I've seen an official document from GTR today regarding the replacement buses between HFN/WAS-SVG.
There will be 2bph running HFN-SVG non-stop, and 1bph WAS-SVG. Presumably the same in the other direction.
Buses will pick up and drop off from Stevenage Leisure Park, the front of Watton station, and the front of Hertford North station. Stevenage Leisure Park will be adapted slightly to provide idling areas for the buses, and a shelter for passengers.
The Hertford-Stevenage buses will be double-decker, they'll have wi-fi and will have GN liveries. The Watton-Stevenage buses be single decker, have wi-fi, but may not have the livery. That depends on usage.

The buses are expected to operate for one year, but there is an extension clause if they need it.

Aictos · 23 Feb 2019

Fred26 said:
I've seen an official document from GTR today regarding the replacement buses between HFN/WAS-SVG.
There will be 2bph running HFN-SVG non-stop, and 1bph WAS-SVG. Presumably the same in the other direction.
Buses will pick up and drop off from Stevenage Leisure Park, the front of Watton station, and the front of Hertford North station. Stevenage Leisure Park will be adapted slightly to provide idling areas for the buses, and a shelter for passengers.
The Hertford-Stevenage buses will be double-decker, they'll have wi-fi and will have GN liveries. The Watton-Stevenage buses be single decker, have wi-fi, but may not have the livery. That depends on usage.

The buses are expected to operate for one year, but there is an extension clause if they need it.

Interesting, didn't expect any rail replacement buses to either carry GN livery not have wifi or even be double deckers!

I was under the impression that it would rely solely on whatever vehicle is available at the local coach/bus garages so a mix bag of various companies.

Thanks for the update, very much appreciated

Fred26 · 23 Feb 2019

Aictos said:
Interesting, didn't expect any rail replacement buses to either carry GN livery not have wifi or even be double deckers!

I was under the impression that it would rely solely on whatever vehicle is available at the local coach/bus garages so a mix bag of various companies.

Thanks for the update, very much appreciated

Yeah, me too. That was a pleasant surprise. I suspect it's because they expect the buses to run for at least a year and want to lose as few passengers as possible. If any old turd of a bus turned up people would soon give up. They may do anyway, but at least there is some effort on GTR's part.

Aictos · 23 Feb 2019

The other thing as well least they're using single deckers on the Watton services as turning at the station has never been ideal, minibuses would have been better though.

Looking forward to seeing what these Hertford Express buses look like

Ianno87 · 23 Feb 2019

Fred26 said:
Yeah, me too. That was a pleasant surprise. I suspect it's because they expect the buses to run for at least a year and want to lose as few passengers as possible. If any old turd of a bus turned up people would soon give up. They may do anyway, but at least there is some effort on GTR's part.

It will help passenger morale now that the works for Platform 5 are now so visible, so the bus is obviously temporary to them, wity physical evidence of its eventual end.

Would have been more difficult in December had it been introduced then.

Hadders · 23 Feb 2019

Aictos said:
Oyster is going no further thent Hertford North or Welwyn Garden City at the moment so no need for any validators to be installed at Stevenage, Knebworth, Welwyn North or Watton At Stone as HFN/WGC will be the boundary of Oyster so anyone travelling from the latter 4 stations will just need a Boundary ticket ie a Stevenage to Hertford Stations then a travelcard.

I await to be correct on the fares side but that is how I see it happening.

Hertford North and WGC for Oyster is correct. Many take the view that the Great Northern inner services will get taken over by TfL, if this were to happen then Oyster would ned to be extended to Stevenage, Watton at Stone, Knebworth and Welwyn North as there's no way TfL would operate a service on which Oyster could not be used.

Fred26 said:
I've seen an official document from GTR today regarding the replacement buses between HFN/WAS-SVG.
There will be 2bph running HFN-SVG non-stop, and 1bph WAS-SVG. Presumably the same in the other direction.
Buses will pick up and drop off from Stevenage Leisure Park, the front of Watton station, and the front of Hertford North station. Stevenage Leisure Park will be adapted slightly to provide idling areas for the buses, and a shelter for passengers.
The Hertford-Stevenage buses will be double-decker, they'll have wi-fi and will have GN liveries. The Watton-Stevenage buses be single decker, have wi-fi, but may not have the livery. That depends on usage.

The buses are expected to operate for one year, but there is an extension clause if they need it.

If they can get the works done in a year then that's not too bad - not so long ago they were saying there was going to be bustitution for 3 years!

Aictos · 23 Feb 2019

Hadders said:
Hertford North and WGC for Oyster is correct. Many take the view that the Great Northern inner services will get taken over by TfL, if this were to happen then Oyster would ned to be extended to Stevenage, Watton at Stone, Knebworth and Welwyn North as there's no way TfL would operate a service on which Oyster could not be used.

I disagree on part of your post ie the fact that you have stated that were TfL was to take over the GN Inners that Oyster would need to be extended to Stevenage, Watton At Stone, Welwyn North and Knebworth as there is no way TfL would operate a service that Oyster cannot be used on and I will explain below...

Firstly I don't think there are any plans to extend the existing Welwyn Garden City stopping services to Stevenage especially when you consider the bottleneck that is Digswell Viaduct which restricts the number of available paths but also as WGC is the terminus of these services ie you can't go any further with the stopping services it makes sense that it is the furthest you can go with Oyster.

Secondly the Hertford Loop presents something of a issue or not, the issue being that if TfL were to take over the stopping services via Hertford then either they become responsible for the entire service that terminates at Stevenage or they do what First Capital Connect and South Eastern did with the Sevenoaks services which had at the time SE being responsible for the service south of Blackfriars and FCC being responsible for the service north of Blackfriars which means that TfL is responsible for the service from Hertford to London and GN is responsible for the service onto Stevenage.

Thirdly I don't see why Watton At Stone or Stevenage needs to have Oyster acceptance as even if TfL took over full control of the Stevenage to London via Hertford services, you would just need to get a ticket from either of these stations to the boundary/first station in the London Zones ie a Stevenage to Hertford Stations ticket and then a travelcard.

Fourthly you have existing services serving London which Oyster is only valid on part of the journey ie the Waterloo to Windsor and Eton Riverside so I can't see why TfL if they operated services between London and Stevenage via Hertford that they would have issues with Oyster.

MatthewRead · 23 Feb 2019

Aictos said:
Oyster is going no further then Hertford North or Welwyn Garden City at the moment so no need for any validators to be installed at Stevenage, Knebworth, Welwyn North or Watton At Stone as HFN/WGC will be the boundary of Oyster so anyone travelling from the latter 4 stations will just need a Boundary ticket ie a Stevenage to Hertford Stations then a travelcard.

I await to be correct on the fares side but that is how I see it happening.

When will Oyster be extended there because you can't go beyond Hadley Wood on Oyster.

Hadders · 24 Feb 2019

I don't know whether ot not TfL will take over the Moorgate inner suburban service but it's often rumoured that they will, particularly if GTR gets broken up, and if the rumour that LNER might acquire the Cambridge Express and Kings Lynn service. Personally I believe there are many disadvantages of TfL taking over the service but I suspect that at some point it will happen. TfL are strapped for cash but they would acquire a route with brand new trains which would need little investment other than branding.

Aictos said:
Firstly I don't think there are any plans to extend the existing Welwyn Garden City stopping services to Stevenage especially when you consider the bottleneck that is Digswell Viaduct which restricts the number of available paths but also as WGC is the terminus of these services ie you can't go any further with the stopping services it makes sense that it is the furthest you can go with Oyster.

There aren't any plans to expend the WGC inner service but if Oyster were to be accepted at Stevenage and Watton at Stone it would leave Knebworth and Welwyn North as an island without it. That would be ludicrous.

Aictos said:
Secondly the Hertford Loop presents something of a issue or not, the issue being that if TfL were to take over the stopping services via Hertford then either they become responsible for the entire service that terminates at Stevenage or they do what First Capital Connect and South Eastern did with the Sevenoaks services which had at the time SE being responsible for the service south of Blackfriars and FCC being responsible for the service north of Blackfriars which means that TfL is responsible for the service from Hertford to London and GN is responsible for the service onto Stevenage.

For the sake of two stations TfL would take the whole lot over. TfL would want their branding on everything, there's no way they would want the service split at Hertford.

Aictos said:
Thirdly I don't see why Watton At Stone or Stevenage needs to have Oyster acceptance as even if TfL took over full control of the Stevenage to London via Hertford services, you would just need to get a ticket from either of these stations to the boundary/first station in the London Zones ie a Stevenage to Hertford Stations ticket and then a travelcard.

TfL would never operate a service over which Oyster was not accepted.

Aictos said:
Fourthly you have existing services serving London which Oyster is only valid on part of the journey ie the Waterloo to Windsor and Eton Riverside so I can't see why TfL if they operated services between London and Stevenage via Hertford that they would have issues with Oyster.

Correct. But Waterloo to Windsor & Eaton Riverside isn't operated by TfL. The fact that Oyster will go as far as Reading when Crossrail opens indicates that if TfL were to take over the inner suburban service to Stevenage they would also extend Oyster.

Bald Rick · 24 Feb 2019

AIUI from news sites about a year ago, the deal has been done to give the GN inners to TfL at the next franchise change, assuming the latter has the cash to pay for it (which is by no means certain!)

This will then test the TfL model in terms of taking over a new service with new trains and no prospect of frequency enhancement or Oysterisation.

Aictos · 25 Feb 2019

Hadders said:
There aren't any plans to expend the WGC inner service but if Oyster were to be accepted at Stevenage and Watton at Stone it would leave Knebworth and Welwyn North as an island without it. That would be ludicrous.

I agree however the fact remains that the inner suburban services only go as far as Welwyn Garden City and won't continue to Stevenage for the foreseenable future due to line constraints with the infrastructure therefore even if TfL did take over the GN Inners they would only operate Oyster as far as Welwyn Garden City and Stevenage via Hertford with notices at Welwyn North and Knebworth stating Oyster is not valid and at Stevenage stating Oyster is only valid on London Overground services.

It's not difficult and what I believe TfL and the DfT will do after all when Oyster was first introduced to the GN, it only went so far and was quite restrictive in the area it covered at that time stations such as Enfield Chase, Gordon Hill etc all had notices stating Oyster was not valid however when Oyster was extended these notices came down so yes I believe they can get away with the way I said even if you believe it's ludicrous.

The only way that Welwyn North and Knebworth will see Oyster is 1. The GN Inners get extended to Stevenage even if it's only 1tph and 2. They find the resources to do this other then that I doubt very much Oyster will come to these stations.

Hadders said:
Correct. But Waterloo to Windsor & Eaton Riverside isn't operated by TfL. The fact that Oyster will go as far as Reading when Crossrail opens indicates that if TfL were to take over the inner suburban service to Stevenage they would also extend Oyster.

However we must bear in mind that Oyster was originally not going to be extended to Reading but only as far as Maidenhead, with the lobbying by certain people of Reading the decision was taken to extend the Elizabeth line to Reading and bring Oyster there as a direct result.

Hadders · 25 Feb 2019

Aictos said:
I agree however the fact remains that the inner suburban services only go as far as Welwyn Garden City and won't continue to Stevenage for the foreseenable future due to line constraints with the infrastructure therefore even if TfL did take over the GN Inners they would only operate Oyster as far as Welwyn Garden City and Stevenage via Hertford with notices at Welwyn North and Knebworth stating Oyster is not valid and at Stevenage stating Oyster is only valid on London Overground services.

It's not difficult and what I believe TfL and the DfT will do after all when Oyster was first introduced to the GN, it only went so far and was quite restrictive in the area it covered at that time stations such as Enfield Chase, Gordon Hill etc all had notices stating Oyster was not valid however when Oyster was extended these notices came down so yes I believe they can get away with the way I said even if you believe it's ludicrous.

The only way that Welwyn North and Knebworth will see Oyster is 1. The GN Inners get extended to Stevenage even if it's only 1tph and 2. They find the resources to do this other then that I doubt very much Oyster will come to these stations.

However we must bear in mind that Oyster was originally not going to be extended to Reading but only as far as Maidenhead, with the lobbying by certain people of Reading the decision was taken to extend the Elizabeth line to Reading and bring Oyster there as a direct result.

We’ll have to agree to disagree. My view is that if Oyster from Stevenage would have to be allowed on all services between Stevenage and London, including GTR and LNER. The fact that the DfT are currently consulting on extending PAYG as far as Stevenage also supports this opinion.

jopsuk · 26 Feb 2019

If the "Moorgate" platform 5 has it's own gateline, and almost all services use it, then restricting Oyster to the Hertford loop would be very simple.

higthomas · 26 Feb 2019

jopsuk said:
If the "Moorgate" platform 5 has it's own gateline, and almost all services use it, then restricting Oyster to the Hertford loop would be very simple.

I think this is the only way it could happen. But do remember that there was a point when oyster was valid e.g. Walthamstow to Liverpool street, but not at intermediate stations.

A0wen · 26 Feb 2019

Aictos said:
Interesting, didn't expect any rail replacement buses to either carry GN livery not have wifi or even be double deckers!

I was under the impression that it would rely solely on whatever vehicle is available at the local coach/bus garages so a mix bag of various companies.

Thanks for the update, very much appreciated

I think when it's short-term "emergency" RRB, what you say is correct, it's whatever can be found at short notice.

But to take a different example, the current Wellingborough - Bedford bus link, that's being run by Stagecoach out of their Bedford depot using a coach in Stagecoach colours (which of course are also EMT's colours) but with sign-writing on it making it clear that it is the EMT Bedford - Wellingborough coach.

Aictos · 26 Feb 2019

Hadders said:
We’ll have to agree to disagree. My view is that if Oyster from Stevenage would have to be allowed on all services between Stevenage and London, including GTR and LNER. The fact that the DfT are currently consulting on extending PAYG as far as Stevenage also supports this opinion.

Yes we just have to agree to disagree, I just don't think we will ever see Oyster at Knebworth or Welwyn North but we will at Stevenage Platform 5 for the Hertford services only) and Watton At Stone.

Note though that just because the DfT are currently consulting on extending PAYG to Stevenage doesn't mean they are automatically considering Oyster, it's very likely that they could just looking at PAYG fares using The Key for one on a walk up and pay basis but rolled out to be used on all operators as at the moment I believe the Key is only valid on GTR services so for someone travelling Kings Cross to Peterborough, it wouldn't be valid and I think the DfT is more interested in reaching a agreement with the operators to allow this then just allow Oyster on all services between London and Stevenage.

jopsuk said:
If the "Moorgate" platform 5 has it's own gateline, and almost all services use it, then restricting Oyster to the Hertford loop would be very simple.

Indeed, it would be rather simple to do it this way as looking on RTT amongst other sources I can't see any Hertford service starting/terminating anywhere else but Stevenage ie no longer at Letchworth so yes I think it would be fairly simple to restrict it to the Hertford Loop.

higthomas said:
I think this is the only way it could happen. But do remember that there was a point when oyster was valid e.g. Walthamstow to Liverpool street, but not at intermediate stations.

Really, I knew there were restrictions when Oyster first became valid on National Rail services but wasn't aware of the above restriction as it's not a route I use or am familiar with.

A0wen said:
I think when it's short-term "emergency" RRB, what you say is correct, it's whatever can be found at short notice.

But to take a different example, the current Wellingborough - Bedford bus link, that's being run by Stagecoach out of their Bedford depot using a coach in Stagecoach colours (which of course are also EMT's colours) but with sign-writing on it making it clear that it is the EMT Bedford - Wellingborough coach.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Virgin Trains have a VT liveried coach running between Milton Keynes and Luton a few years ago?

Hadders · 27 Feb 2019

Aictos said:
Yes we just have to agree to disagree, I just don't think we will ever see Oyster at Knebworth or Welwyn North but we will at Stevenage Platform 5 for the Hertford services only) and Watton At Stone.

Note though that just because the DfT are currently consulting on extending PAYG to Stevenage doesn't mean they are automatically considering Oyster, it's very likely that they could just looking at PAYG fares using The Key for one on a walk up and pay basis but rolled out to be used on all operators as at the moment I believe the Key is only valid on GTR services so for someone travelling Kings Cross to Peterborough, it wouldn't be valid and I think the DfT is more interested in reaching a agreement with the operators to allow this then just allow Oyster on all services between London and Stevenage.

Are you seriously suggesting that Stevenage could end up with two versions of PAYG depending on which platform your train departs from.....

Aictos · 28 Feb 2019

Hadders said:
Are you seriously suggesting that Stevenage could end up with two versions of PAYG depending on which platform your train departs from.....

Just because the DfT is suggesting extending PAYG to Stevenage doesn't mean Oyster will come, it could be something like The Key but available on all TOCs regardless.

Yes Oyster has been mentioned but I think some here including yourself are jumping the gun a tad when we should wait including myself to see exactly what form this will take.

A0wen · 1 Mar 2019

Aictos said:
Y
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Virgin Trains have a VT liveried coach running between Milton Keynes and Luton a few years ago?

Correct - it was for the MK - Luton Airport "Rail link". When Virgin withdrew their support for it, Stagecoach continued the service, renumbered as 99 (was VT99) and run it, to this day, using Stagecoach branded vehicles.

adamedwards · 21 Apr 2019

Journey past the site today and the whole lenght from the Hertford Loop line to Stevenage station is pegged out with yellow and blue posts. Whilst the site is clear at the station end and largely at the right level, it's clear there is a lot of work to do in volume to cut the sides of the cutting back near the junction and create space for the 5th line at this point. There was a big digger parked ready. I am guessing one issue must be doing this near the down slow, so I assume only possible under possession and therefore done at night, which will slow the speed of the project (?). Looking forward to seeing the landscape change.

Fred26 · 21 Apr 2019

Also, the base for the new waiting shelter at the bottom of the stairs has been put in place.

yorkie · 21 Apr 2019

Can we please stay on topic; this thread is in the infrastructure & stations section. If anyone wishes to discuss ticketing, or anything else, please create a thread in the appropriate place.

I have moved a couple of posts to https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-throughout-the-south-east-of-england.181515/

If you spot a post that is off topic, please report it using the report button. Note that if a thread has already gone off topic after several posts it may be impracticable for us to split all the relevant posts to a new thread, as this can be time consuming.

Ediswan · 22 May 2019

Fred26 said:
The Hertford-Stevenage buses will be double-decker, they'll have wi-fi and will have GN liveries. The Watton-Stevenage buses be single decker, have wi-fi, but may not have the livery. That depends on usage.

Shiny looking double-deckers spotted (driving the other way), but red, no rail livery. Does the livery matter? I doubt it.

JaJaWa · 23 May 2019

Passed through today, pictures attached.

Mcq · 24 May 2019

Well done 'admin' on clearing the detritus from this forum.
Good to see folk posting interesting stuff again.

cle · 24 May 2019

Quite a sizeable footprint - could it be an island (maybe p6 as a bay, with p5 as a through?) - might really help out on pathing and the TL timetable.

swt_passenger · 24 May 2019

cle said:
Quite a sizeable footprint - could it be an island (maybe p6 as a bay, with p5 as a through?) - might really help out on pathing and the TL timetable.

The planning document (environmental impact assessment), details in post #162 - says definitely not.

Stevenage platform 5

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