Could there be demand for loco-hauled MK3s in preservation?

Peter Mugridge · 22 May 2019

Bletchleyite said:
As I think I mentioned upthread, there is a railtour support coach Mk3 that has been retrofitted with opening windows. So it can be done.

Are you thinking of 99968 in the Royal Scotsman ( screenshot image below )?

I think I'd personally prefer the air conditioned version.

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Bevan Price · 22 May 2019

Peter C said:
Some interesting and important points that I personally hadn't thought of. When you say "fit sliding ventilators", what do you mean? Do you mean windows in the seating area (as opposed to the vestibules)? I like the fact that the HSTs have the single-pane windows and the slam doors (if you can call them that).
Also, would the Central Door Locking be removed to fit in with the Mk1s? Surely not. Just another idea.

-Peter

By sliding ventilators, I meant the type of sliding windows used in most passenger saloons prior to introduction of AirCon stock.
Central door locking would need to be removed unless steam locos were fitted with electrical generators. Now that is not unknown - some Austrian narrow guage steam locos had small generators many years ago, but I think they only generated enough power to supply coach lighting, not train heating, etc.

Bletchleyite · 22 May 2019

You could probably quite easily run LED lighting and CDL off axle generators and batteries, to be honest. It's aircon and heating that is the big load (retrofit steam heat?)

Bletchleyite · 22 May 2019

Peter Mugridge said:
Are you thinking of 99968 in the Royal Scotsman ( screenshot image below )?

Yes, that's the one, thanks.

43096 · 23 May 2019

option said:
240v generator & a loco-controlled air-braking system in a guards carriage?

240V? Loco hauled Mark 3s have 850V supply.

43096 · 23 May 2019

Bletchleyite said:
You could probably quite easily run LED lighting and CDL off axle generators and batteries, to be honest. It's aircon and heating that is the big load (retrofit steam heat?)

Anyone fitting steam heat to a Mark 3 would be absolutely stark raving bonkers.

Fawkes Cat · 23 May 2019

option said:
240v generator & a loco-controlled air-braking system in a guards carriage?

I'm not sure how one gets round the braking, but surely the obvious solution to ETH etc is to include a diesel locomotive in the rake - presumably just behind the steam engine, or possibly at the back of the train. Most (ideally all) of the time it just acts as a glorified generator car - but if the steam locomotive fails, then you've already got motive force there which will get the train home - even if not in the steam driven glory that was intended.

option · 23 May 2019

Considering what it would cost to do the necessary works, probably makes most sense if they were used for services with higher revenue per passenger, so mainline charters, dining trains on the mainline & heritage lines, etc

option · 23 May 2019

43096 said:
240V? Loco hauled Mark 3s have 850V supply.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Mark_3
The main difference between the HST vehicles and the loco-hauled Mark 3A relates to electrical supply arrangements. HST coaches take an industrial voltage/frequency 3-phase supply directly from an auxiliary alternator in the power car to supply on-board equipment such as air conditioning; loco-hauled vehicles take a standard 1000 V DC or single-phase AC train heat supply from the locomotive and convert it through motor generator units under the floor. These convert the train supply to 3-phase 415/240 V 50 Hz AC to power air conditioning and other ancillaries. The two types are non-interconnectable in service conditions.

HST sets have a 415V supply, & use for the air-con, which they convert to 110Vdc for lighting etc
Loco hauled have 850V supply.

Porterbrook have it listed as '700-1000v ac or dc feed'

Power systems
Mk3 coaches are powered from the locomotive Electric Train Supply (ETS) at approximately 700V-1000V ac or dc, depending on the locomotive used. This is supplied to a motor alternator, supplied by Brush Electrical Ltd, which converts the ETS voltage into a 3 phase supply at a nominal 415Vac 50Hz. This is used to supply the Air Conditioning module and as 240Vac single phase for auxiliary equipment. The motor alternator set also produces a rectified 110Vdc supply which is used for battery charging and control voltages. This 110Vdc supply is further reduced to 28Vdc for the Publie Address (PA) system supply.

240Vac
Mk3a RFM catering vehicles have a second ETS powered motor alternator, which supplies single phase 240Vac to much of the catering equipment, which is described in the subsequent section. These vehicles also have several ventilation fans and a convection oven supplied by the 3-phase system.

So, there is potentially 5 different electrical systems, & the only way to supply them is if you have a loco with ETS.
Add in how old some of the equipment is, & whether it would stay on carriages sold into private hands (would the ROSCOS take it for spares, would the air-con units have to be removed & disposed of properly, etc)

If your ripping out the sealed windows to put in openers then pointless having air-con. Even if you keep air-con, it's going to be easier, & cheaper, to use 230V units.
Lighting? Likely replacing that anyway, so led's run off a 230V transformer.
PA/sound system? New one on 230V

Why would you try & retain all the old stuff, which is going to be difficult to maintain & source parts/replacements for?

Jonny · 23 May 2019

option said:
HST sets have a 415V supply, & use for the air-con, which they convert to 110Vdc for lighting etc
Loco hauled have 850V supply.

Porterbrook have it listed as '700-1000v ac or dc feed'

So, there is potentially 5 different electrical systems, & the only way to supply them is if you have a loco with ETS.
Add in how old some of the equipment is, & whether it would stay on carriages sold into private hands (would the ROSCOS take it for spares, would the air-con units have to be removed & disposed of properly, etc)

If your ripping out the sealed windows to put in openers then pointless having air-con. Even if you keep air-con, it's going to be easier, & cheaper, to use 230V units.
Lighting? Likely replacing that anyway, so led's run off a 230V transformer.
PA/sound system? New one on 230V

Why would you try & retain all the old stuff, which is going to be difficult to maintain & source parts/replacements for?

A static inverter system could be fitted in place of the motor-alternator (and would eliminate many moving parts), and could potentially be fed from AC using a rectifier/adaptor with minimal further modification.

option · 23 May 2019

Ireland are using 230V on their stock
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-end_power#Ireland

Take 1 Mk3 TGS. Fit axle-driven alternators to provide 230V. Fit battery system using used ev batteries (can then be charged from shore power). Fit generator as backup.
All modern, off the shelf, stuff.

Fawkes Cat · 23 May 2019

option said:
Why would you try & retain all the old stuff, which is going to be difficult to maintain & source parts/replacements for?

Isn't that the basic modus operandi of the railway preservation movement?

43096 · 23 May 2019

option said:
HST sets have a 415V supply, & use for the air-con, which they convert to 110Vdc for lighting etc
Loco hauled have 850V supply.

Porterbrook have it listed as '700-1000v ac or dc feed'

So, there is potentially 5 different electrical systems, & the only way to supply them is if you have a loco with ETS.
Add in how old some of the equipment is, & whether it would stay on carriages sold into private hands (would the ROSCOS take it for spares, would the air-con units have to be removed & disposed of properly, etc)

If your ripping out the sealed windows to put in openers then pointless having air-con. Even if you keep air-con, it's going to be easier, & cheaper, to use 230V units.
Lighting? Likely replacing that anyway, so led's run off a 230V transformer.
PA/sound system? New one on 230V

Why would you try & retain all the old stuff, which is going to be difficult to maintain & source parts/replacements for?

Vehicles that have been sold into preservation thus far have largely been basically complete. Certainly got key bits like MA sets and aircon units fitted. And there is no shortage of spares sources given the number of vehicles coming off lease in the near future. That assumes though that anyone buying knows what they are doing.

Peter C · 23 May 2019

Bevan Price said:
By sliding ventilators, I meant the type of sliding windows used in most passenger saloons prior to introduction of AirCon stock.
Central door locking would need to be removed unless steam locos were fitted with electrical generators. Now that is not unknown - some Austrian narrow guage steam locos had small generators many years ago, but I think they only generated enough power to supply coach lighting, not train heating, etc.

Thought so. I think that it would be easier to fit them, and I also think that the support coach mentioned earlier works well with sliding ventilators.

-Peter

option · 23 May 2019

Fawkes Cat said:
Isn't that the basic modus operandi of the railway preservation movement?

Preservation, as in stick it in a museum to be looked at, or heritage, doing the best to recreate a certain period in history?

Plenty of Mk1 carriages with new structural members, new doors, new seats, new flooring, new electrics, etc etc
Steam & diesel locos with new components
New station buildings
New track

The Mk3 carriages are nowhere near original/as-built, so what would you be trying to preserve?
Any that end up on heritage lines will need more than a repaint, & they will need to be maintained, & earn their keep.

S4 · 23 May 2019

Journeyman said:
It's not just any electrical systems, either - it's bespoke solid state stuff that hasn't been manufactured for years. Mark 3s have rudimentary electronic wheel slip protection devices which need a specialist testing unit - there's only a couple of working ones left in the whole country!

That's only a problem if you can't cope without a piece of paper that was written back in 1980 along with a test box that was built at the same time.

Somebody with a brain, said instructions, the drawings and an understanding of what is trying to be acheived can produce the same results as the 'specialist testing unit'.

reddragon · 24 May 2019

Peter C said:
The way I look at it is as follows.

The "Heritage Circuit" is, by name, made up of heritage rolling stock/other railwayana. When a TOC takes a certain type of engine/unit/coach out of service, it is no longer in service (obviously) and can therefore be considered part of the heritage scene, even if, as is the case with the Mk3s, the rolling stock in question is in use with other TOCs. Personally, I would love for a heritage railway or two to have at least some Mk3s, even if they are only used for diesel galas. No offence to anyone, but the number of people who remember (and I mean, remember) steam and Mk1s in normal service is slowly decreasing. This means that we will eventually get to a point where the only memories people have of Mk1s and steam engines are on heritage lines and railtours. Yes, they are still part of the heritage of the British rail network, but from a financial point of view a heritage railway will, at some point, start to benefit from running Mk3s (and maybe even a proper HST on gala days!) as they are what people remember.

Just a thought.

-Peter

Peter,

Most preserved Diesel locos were / are still in service when bought for preservation, as were most Mk1s.

Unfortunately, those running Heritage Railways are of an age that remember steam + mark 1s and that is what pulls in the revenue. Thats even to the point of new build steam.

It is a sad fact that little of what you have got to know will be preserved, no EMUs, few DMUs and there are today few locos, mostly too complex to save and too big.

The class 37 makes the perfect heritage diesel as its popular, ideally sized & cheap to maintain as are Mk1s.

Mk3s are too complex, contain life expired components and are a nightmare to maintain due to their design & corrosion. Charter stock yes, if converted & updated.

Hey, you might see HST power cars hauling Mk1s!!

Peter C · 24 May 2019

reddragon said:
Peter,

Most preserved Diesel locos were / are still in service when bought for preservation, as were most Mk1s.

Unfortunately, those running Heritage Railways are of an age that remember steam + mark 1s and that is what pulls in the revenue. Thats even to the point of new build steam.

It is a sad fact that little of what you have got to know will be preserved, no EMUs, few DMUs and there are today few locos, mostly too complex to save and too big.

The class 37 makes the perfect heritage diesel as its popular, ideally sized & cheap to maintain as are Mk1s.

Mk3s are too complex, contain life expired components and are a nightmare to maintain due to their design & corrosion. Charter stock yes, if converted & updated.

Hey, you might see HST power cars hauling Mk1s!!

I would definitely love to see some of the EMUs and DMUs that I have seen on the national network be preserved, but, as heritage railways will, understandably, go through and electrify their lines with OHLE or 3rd rail there is no chance of seeing something like a 387 somewhere like the Severn Valley Railway!

I would still like to see at least 8 Mk3s preserved, so that someone somewhere can make an old GWR rake, but 43s and Mk1s? No!

Talk about "Hornby railways"!

-Peter

MKC25 · 24 May 2019

Daft question....but how much would a stored MK3 cost to buy? (for a preserved railway?)

Spartacus · 24 May 2019

There's lines that are getting rid of their Mk2s due to them being more difficult to maintain than Mk1s, and having more limited appeal, so I can't see Mk3s catching on except if someone has a power car or two. It's hard enough to find people with the skills required sometimes as it is, never mind finding someone with an extra special set of skills. Nothing apart from power cars really looks out of place at the head of a rake of Mk1s all the way up to 89001.

43096 · 24 May 2019

MKC25 said:
Daft question....but how much would a stored MK3 cost to buy? (for a preserved railway?)

As always with such things, it depends... Anyone who knows how much those sold so far have gone for isn't going to make the number public - they're bound by commercial confidentiality.

reddragon · 24 May 2019

Peter C said:
I would definitely love to see some of the EMUs and DMUs that I have seen on the national network be preserved, but, as heritage railways will, understandably, go through and electrify their lines with OHLE or 3rd rail there is no chance of seeing something like a 387 somewhere like the Severn Valley Railway!
I would still like to see at least 8 Mk3s preserved, so that someone somewhere can make an old GWR rake, but 43s and Mk1s? No! Talk about "Hornby railways"!

-Peter

I miss travelling on old slam door southern stock, in particular the REPs and the class 309s both of which would work as LH stock.

Corrosion issues, complex electric, air braking & aircon would have to be dealt with, that and HSTs only can work HST Mk3s and therefore only LH Mk3s will survive, with opening windows and simplified equipment.

Come on, 2 power cars and a rake of Mk1s would be a haulage first!!

Realistically though, a rake of GWR 1st class Mk3 coaches between 2 power cars on dining services would go down well as longer more interest rail-tours would work.

eldomtom2 · 24 May 2019

Peter C said:
The way I look at it is as follows.

The "Heritage Circuit" is, by name, made up of heritage rolling stock/other railwayana. When a TOC takes a certain type of engine/unit/coach out of service, it is no longer in service (obviously) and can therefore be considered part of the heritage scene, even if, as is the case with the Mk3s, the rolling stock in question is in use with other TOCs. Personally, I would love for a heritage railway or two to have at least some Mk3s, even if they are only used for diesel galas. No offence to anyone, but the number of people who remember (and I mean, remember) steam and Mk1s in normal service is slowly decreasing. This means that we will eventually get to a point where the only memories people have of Mk1s and steam engines are on heritage lines and railtours. Yes, they are still part of the heritage of the British rail network, but from a financial point of view a heritage railway will, at some point, start to benefit from running Mk3s (and maybe even a proper HST on gala days!) as they are what people remember.

Just a thought.

-Peter

I can't help but express doubt that nostalgia is the primary motive for visitors to heritage railways. Steam locomotives have proven to have plenty of appeal to the under-60 crowd...

Peter C · 25 May 2019

eldomtom2 said:
I can't help but express doubt that nostalgia is the primary motive for visitors to heritage railways. Steam locomotives have proven to have plenty of appeal to the under-60 crowd...

Fair - but I still think that nostalgia plays a big part in why people go to heritage railways. I agree with your point that steam engines appeal to those who don't remember steam on British Railways (or earlier), but when I have been to heritage railways, many of the people there seem to be old enough to remember those "good old days".

-Peter

Peter C · 25 May 2019

reddragon said:
I miss travelling on old slam door southern stock, in particular the REPs and the class 309s both of which would work as LH stock.

Corrosion issues, complex electric, air braking & aircon would have to be dealt with, that and HSTs only can work HST Mk3s and therefore only LH Mk3s will survive, with opening windows and simplified equipment.

Come on, 2 power cars and a rake of Mk1s would be a haulage first!!

Realistically though, a rake of GWR 1st class Mk3 coaches between 2 power cars on dining services would go down well as longer more interest rail-tours would work.

Sadly, I never got to travel on any of the Southern slam door stock, but when I have sen videos of them from the time they were running, I can see how good they would be on a heritage line. However, there is only one heritage line with any 3rd rail (to my knowledge but I can't remember the name; I want to say Bluebell) and so any preserved stock would have to run on the mainline or that one heritage route!
Yes, I agree that a couple of 43s and Mk1s would be interesting to see, how practical it is, I do not know!

Last time I remember that our country's heritage railways were not called "Hornby Triang"!

*
I would definitely love to see GWR run the occasional railtour using a HST rake. It would definitely get my attention, seen as I remember the "good old days" of the Class 43 on the GWML, as they'll be known in a few years' time!

*As much as I moan, it's all meant in good spirit and I would actually like to see someone attempt a 43 & Mk1 rake. Maybe they could repaint the Mk1s into the same colour scheme as the power cars; e.g. GWR power cars = GWR+FGW Mk1s, Intercity Swallow 43s = Intercity Swallow Mk1s, etc.!

-Peter

gazthomas · 25 May 2019

No heritage lines have 3rd rail

Peter C · 25 May 2019

gazthomas said:
No heritage lines have 3rd rail

I seem to remember seeing something in a magazine about it. I'll look it up.

I've just had a look in my old magazines and Railways Illustrated says that a small section of 3rd rail was installed at Lydney on the Dean Forest Railway. I've put the magazine down somewhere and I can't find it but when I do I'll post a small section of what the article says. It says the 3rd rail was installed in February.

-Peter

gazthomas · 25 May 2019

Peter C said:
I seem to remember seeing something in a magazine about it. I'll look it up.

I've just had a look in my old magazines and Railways Illustrated says that a small section of 3rd rail was installed at Lydney on the Dean Forest Railway. I've put the magazine down somewhere and I can't find it but when I do I'll post a small section of what the article says. It says the 3rd rail was installed in February.

-Peter

I saw that on 1st April and assumed it to be an April's Fool stunt

Peter C · 25 May 2019

gazthomas said:
I saw that on 1st April and assumed it to be an April's Fool stunt

Oh OK. I still can't find my magazine so I only have the information already provided.

-Peter

Firstof5 · 26 May 2019

A short dead secton was put in at the Dean Forest for tamper training, its not much longer than 50m

Could there be demand for loco-hauled MK3s in preservation?

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