EM2
Established Member
A thought occurs.
The Brexit Party received about 5.2m votes. Where were the other 12.2m that voted Leave?
The Brexit Party received about 5.2m votes. Where were the other 12.2m that voted Leave?
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EU Elections 2019
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They had a headache, and were washing their hair that day, the bus was late, and the #dogsAtPollingStations ate their ballot papers. Besides, the polling station is a long way from the house - it's a democratic outrage to expect them to go there more than once every 30 years.
Howardh
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I take it you mean we go to the booths twice, first for the remain/leave and if leave wins the second would be on what basis do we leave (so remainers could win a soft-Brexit vote)?
The Tories will not want to be anywhere near a general election in the near future, and I imagine similar thoughts will be happening in the Labour party. If these results are even a hint of what could happen at a GE, then both parties would be having very bad nights indeed. Not least, many of the main figures, e.g. May, Johnson & Corbyn, in their safe seats for years, have found their parties losing in those areas. Boris's constituency had the tories down in fourth place.
Bantamzen
Established Member
To be fair not all leavers supported UKIP / Brexit Party. However it was an opportunity for them to pin their colours to Farage's agenda. I guess, in fact I know that some leavers could not stomach voting for him no matter how much they want to leave the EU. In essence, Farage is bad news for Leave.
No, it could be done on the same ballot paper, asking something like "If a leave decision is returned which of the following would you prefer?".
edwin_m
Veteran Member
That may be technically true but I think the clue's in the name for the Brexit party, and in a sense if your policy is to get out of the EU there's no point in having any other policies for your MEPs to follow. If you have policies on anything else then they just create reasons for people not to vote for you.
So we have in the Brexit party something perfectly crafted to catch the votes of those who want Brexit under any circumstances. And they (plus UKIP) got 35% of a 38% turnout. Parties unequivocally supporting Remain got 41%. Going by seats, where the systems disbenefits smaller parties, the Remain parties look set to get 26 versus 29 for Brexit (latest predictions for Scotland, NI excluded).
DarloRich
Veteran Member
looking at the results are the pro Brexit parties down on seats versus last time? Has there not been a straight swap UKIP for Brexit/Farage with a number of previously brexity seats going to the Lib Dems or Greens?
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Couldn't that just replicate where we are now, with a vote to leave but no clear steer on how? There would also be a lot of combinations to choose from - and it would have to have each one spelled out specifically rather than a yes/no for each "feature", which could end up favouring an undeliverable combination.
I think it needs a number of options, each of which is capable of being delivered if chosen, with a single transferrable vote or similar. I fear that probably has to include a no-deal, for the simple reason that if it doesn't then Farage and a large slice of the Tory party will consider it to be a stitch-up. It would have to include remaining and it might include May's deal as the only other option on the table.
Brexit party has 29 seats versus 23 for UKIP previously (assuming one win in Scotland as predicted). Labour and Conservatives have both lost large numbers, some to the Brexit party but more to the Lib Dems and other parties supporting Remain. It's basically saying that the middle ground, as represented by May's compromise or Labour's sitting on the fence, is no longer viable.
Bantamzen
Established Member
That sounds reasonable enough, and having 'no deal' on the options will actually force a debate on 'no dela' & expose it's risks more to a public that may not understand that trade deals with somewhere like the EU don't just pop up & that we have a very strong, symbiotic relationship with them. So just effectively sticking two fingers up at the and walking away would be shown for the absolute worst case scenario that it is.
squizzler
Established Member
No, you cannot have a free pass to direct public discourse without committing policy on which you can be judged to paper - which is recognised as a manifesto. 'Put up or shut up' applies here.
Now we have labour and this Brexit party both with leaders have made utterances that might lead you to think their stated policy is to leave the EU, the only differences are that one of them has a pretty opaque manifesto and the other no manifesto at all.
Those who want to leave the EU should have voted Tory or UKIP because it forms their binding manifesto pledge. So 23 seats for remain parties, 3 for leave parties and 38 for those with missing/non-committal manifesto pledges.
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There is still a staggering large proportion of the Great British Electorate seemingly supporting No Deal. The vast majority not having the faintest idea what that actually means. And still wouldn't even if you tried to tell them - not sure they'd listen...
Bantamzen
Established Member
I don't doubt that sadly. However, putting the facts bluntly to them, i.e. no deal means decades of trade renegotiations, higher tariffs, higher prices, trade offs in the form of aid & visa relaxation and less opportunity overseas for UK industry might just be heard by enough over the noise. And if not, they will be at blame!
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
Where were all the Remain voters? In general people here don’t care about EU elections. Even most Remainers don’t know who their MEPs are.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
I think that has to be coupled with some honesty on both how much and how little the EU actually affects anybody's lives. "How little" in the sense that austerity and disenfranchisement of large sections of the population are entirely due to policies at Westminster rather than Brussels, contrary to what various self-interested politicians and the tabloids have been saying for years. And "how much" because although trade negotiations and visa requirements mean very little to most of the electorate, membership of the EU helps British business keep British people in jobs (immigration notwithstanding), ensures a level of protection for workers, and assures greater prosperity and therefore scope for the Westminster government to do better.
For Labour in particular, this ties in well with an attack on Tory policies since 2010. It needs to be around the fact that remaining in the EU won't solve Britain's problems, but Britain's problems are a lot harder to solve if we leave.
Howardh
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Probably all reading up about who to vote for in the upcoming WTO elections, you know, the ones which are more democratic than the unaccountable and undemocratic EU.
Oh, hang on....
Nah, that's where 'Project Fear' gets raised to brush it all aside... Therein lies the problem.
Either that, or Dave from the Dog & Duck sees simply sees Trade Negotiations and Tariffs as somebody else's problem.
A Challenge
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62 seats on local councils, a member of the House of Lords and 2 Welsh AMs (originally 7, list seats only)
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
No but really where were they please?
That many, I am surprised. I thought they had been pretty well wiped out. Lords doesn't count (unelected), I'd forgotten the Welsh 'list' candidates. I knew they'd been wiped out in Thanet (the council they'd controlled) and I had mentally blocked the truly delightful candidate for Sheppey East who advocated the death penalty for remain voters (https://www.kentonline.co.uk/sittingbourne/news/i-am-not-racist-202116/)
Busaholic
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That Sheppey woman is more off her trolley than Ann Widdecombe, whom I now have to accept as one of my MEPs and is already all over the airwaves again berating anybody who challenges the piffle she comes up with. Amusing that she once described her then boss Michael Howard as having 'something of the night' about him. Well, old bats come out at night, and she was much in evidence last night.
hooverboy
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looking at the result it means british politics in general has shifted right,
the conservatives got hammered because they weren't conservative enough
labour got slaughtered because there is a significant proportion of remain who don't subscribe to communism/maoism/marxism..which is what labour have become.
TBH I think we could well end up with a similar result if a general election was called next week.corbyn might not be that pleased.
...it seems like the lib dems have now been forgiven for tuition fees...maybe not quite,but coming across as the cleanest dirty shirt.
nobody trusts the tories or labour
brexit party now about to teach the tories a lesson in small government(can it be repeated at local level too?)
She's really just become a pantomime figure, they haul her onto the local radio station when they want to liven up the debate. If the Europeans thought Nige was bad …
I suppose we can always use her as a threat - concessions on trade or we'll remain in and make Widdy spokeswoman# on trade/ finance, whatever.
Councillor Nissanga is in a whole different ball-park and, worryingly, 425 people actually voted for her.
# - she would not want to be called a spokesman.
Not another forty years of failed small state, laissez-faire drivel please.
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
I don't think Labour and the Tories got hammered because of not being conservative enough/too left wing. They got hammered because almost everyone who really wants to leave defected to Brexit/UKIP, and almost everyone who really wants to remain defected to the LibDems/Greens/ChangeUK/SNP/PC. So basically the only people who voted Labour or Tory were hard-core activists plus the small minority of the electorate who don't see Brexit as the most important issue.
Labour have become like Communism, Marxism or Maoism. Are you having a laugh? You make them sound like the Khmer Rouge when they are actually more like Denmark or Sweden.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
They aren't going to teach anyone anything other than how to be a host for the political parasite that is Farage. They have no policies and no power. It is all an ego trip for Nigel. It is incredible people, perhaps you included, continue to fall for this stuff.
The Conservatives got hammered because their blue rinse army voted for man of the people Nigel not because they weren't Conservative enough! That they didn't deliver the no deal brexit, Dunkirk spirt, return to 1950's, putting forigns in their place wet dream of these people and that is the reason they got hammered.
Labour didn't get slaughtered. They did very badly but better than the Tories. They did badly because under Corbyn they have tried to be all things to all people brexit wise instead of following the views of their members. They need to pick a side and advocate for it. As for the communism/maoism/marxism I wonder if you have any idea what these ideologies are about! I wonder where you get this stuff! Corbyn is ( or his main advisers are), if anything, more on the Stalinist bus. That said the man is a completely useless leader and an incompetent idiot.
The Lib Dems ( and the Greens) did well becuase they were unequivocally anti Brexit and cleaned up the remain vote.
it would have been a better approach to stand as one anti brexit block and put Farage and his tax avoiding chums in their place but such is politics.
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DarloRich
Veteran Member
Is the correct answer but people who consume "alternative fact based media" have to find some special reason behind everything
True. Some people will learn the extremely heard way and drag many more with them .
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