Should my Gold Card have worked the barriers at Bromley South?

urpert · 26 May 2019

I have an annual London Terminals - Eden Park AAA Petts Wood season. Recently I tried to use it to leave the station at Bromley South and the gates refused it. I was waved through by a member of staff who didn’t even look at the ticket but have since wondered whether the gates just aren’t programmed to accept such an obscure ticket, or whether I have misunderstood the permitted routes.

My amateurish understanding of the Routing Guide would suggest it would be valid on at least the following routes:

Eden Park - London Bridge/Cannon St/Waterloo East/Charing X via Catford Bridge (& Lewisham or avoiding Lewisham)
Eden Park - Victoria via Lewisham and Nunhead
Eden Park - Blackfriars/City Thameslink via the Catford stations or via London Bridge
Petts Wood - London Bridge etc via Hither Green
Petts Wood - London Bridge via Beckenham Jn and Tulse Hill
Petts Wood - Victoria or Blackfriars via Bickley

And I assumed that the last one of these would allow me to use it at Bromley South. Would any experts like to weigh in?

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ForTheLoveOf · 26 May 2019

urpert said:
I have an annual London Terminals - Eden Park AAA Petts Wood season. Recently I tried to use it to leave the station at Bromley South and the gates refused it. I was waved through by a member of staff who didn’t even look at the ticket but have since wondered whether the gates just aren’t programmed to accept such an obscure ticket, or whether I have misunderstood the permitted routes.

My amateurish understanding of the Routing Guide would suggest it would be valid on at least the following routes:

Eden Park - London Bridge/Cannon St/Waterloo East/Charing X via Catford Bridge (& Lewisham or avoiding Lewisham)
Eden Park - Victoria via Lewisham and Nunhead
Eden Park - Blackfriars/City Thameslink via the Catford stations or via London Bridge
Petts Wood - London Bridge etc via Hither Green
Petts Wood - London Bridge via Beckenham Jn and Tulse Hill
Petts Wood - Victoria or Blackfriars via Bickley

And I assumed that the last one of these would allow me to use it at Bromley South. Would any experts like to weigh in?

Your season ticket is quite clearly valid for entry or exit at Bromley South. Travel via Bromley South is, at 14.74 miles to Charing Cross, within 3 miles of the shortest route from Petts Wood to Charing Cross (via Hither Green). It's also on the first mapped route from Orpington (the Routeing Point you use for Petts Wood) to London Group - FA.

The issue will no doubt be that Southeastern haven't manually programmed the barriers at Bromley South to open for a London Terminals to Eden Park AAA Petts Wood season. Barriers have to be manually programmed to allow entry or exit for tickets which aren't issued to or from the station at which the barriers are located - the barriers aren't smart, they just read the magnetic strip and compare that to a database of what's listed as valid.

A rejection by an automated barrier is no judgment on the true validity of a ticket (in the same way that the opposite applies - an acceptance of a ticket does not necessarily mean it is valid to travel). It's good that you were rapidly let through instead.

urpert · 26 May 2019

Thanks for the extremely helpful reply.

Hadders · 26 May 2019

Barriers are ‘simple’ and cannot possibly be programmed with details of every single ticket that might be valid.

The barriers at my local station even reject all Advance tickets starting from that station!

urpert · 27 May 2019

Just a quick additional thought that occurred to me - would it make any difference transferring the season to “The Key” (i.e. are the barriers any “smarter” with those cards as opposed to mag stripe tickets)?

Hadders · 27 May 2019

urpert said:
Just a quick additional thought that occurred to me - would it make any difference transferring the season to “The Key” (i.e. are the barriers any “smarter” with those cards as opposed to mag stripe tickets)?

Probably not. In fact I'd say you're better off with a paper ticket as you can't be accused of not tapping in/out on each journey (not that it should matter if a season ticket is held). It's just one of those things, it doesn't mean your ticket isn't valid it just means you need to be let out manually.

ForTheLoveOf · 27 May 2019

urpert said:
Just a quick additional thought that occurred to me - would it make any difference transferring the season to “The Key” (i.e. are the barriers any “smarter” with those cards as opposed to mag stripe tickets)?

I believe there may be a different system used for smartcards, since I have been told that GTR staff are encouraged to report frequently encountered smartcard BoJ rejects to the retail team for correction.

However, as @Hadders says, until TOC smartcards become as flexible as paper tickets (i.e. no need to tap in or out to validate the ticket), I'm no convert and I have no intention of using one myself. It needs to be as well-executed as Oyster is for it to be convincing to me.

urpert · 27 May 2019

Thanks again to all. What a great response!

island · 27 May 2019

Hadders said:
Barriers are ‘simple’ and cannot possibly be programmed with details of every single ticket that might be valid.

The barriers at my local station even reject all Advance tickets starting from that station!

A previous thread some time ago suggested this was a process used by some TOCs to ensure that Advances were being used at the right time, as the time is not encoded on the magstripe.

infobleep · 28 May 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
I believe there may be a different system used for smartcards, since I have been told that GTR staff are encouraged to report frequently encountered smartcard BoJ rejects to the retail team for correction.

However, as @Hadders says, until TOC smartcards become as flexible as paper tickets (i.e. no need to tap in or out to validate the ticket), I'm no convert and I have no intention of using one myself. It needs to be as well-executed as Oyster is for it to be convincing to me.

If one joins at an intermediate station it is surely impossible in many cases to validate a ticket on the barriers.

ForTheLoveOf · 28 May 2019

infobleep said:
If one joins at an intermediate station it is surely impossible in many cases to validate a ticket on the barriers.

A database has clearly been established in the same way there has been for paper tickets. Only, for smartcards, they seem remotely interested in fixing gaps in the database!

infobleep · 28 May 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
A database has clearly been established in the same way there has been for paper tickets. Only, for smartcards, they seem remotely interested in fixing gaps in the database!

I thought the routing guide was too complicated for the system to include all valid routes.

ForTheLoveOf · 28 May 2019

infobleep said:
I thought the routing guide was too complicated for the system to include all valid routes.

I never said it included all valid routes! But there seems to be a concerted effort to make a reasonable database rather than the poor effort seen for traditional paper tickets.

infobleep · 28 May 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
I never said it included all valid routes! But there seems to be a concerted effort to make a reasonable database rather than the poor effort seen for traditional paper tickets.

I know you didn't but I thought that was the reason they didn't bother.

Alteran Ancient · 28 May 2019

It may or may not have affected you, but I've noticed there has been a "lockout" on Railcards at Bromley South for quite a while now. If you have a ticket with a Railcard discount applied, the gateline will reject the ticket and force you to speak to someone. I assume that it will affect Gold Card discounted tickets in the same way it would a 16-25 or 26-30 Railcard discount.

hluraven · 28 May 2019

I have a similar ticket, AAA either Beckenham (Jn or New) to London. It works the barriers at Victoria, but none of the London Bridge/Waterloo/Charing Cross terminals. I would have thought New Beckenham to Charing Cross was frequent enough to be coded, but apparently not.

urpert · 28 May 2019

hluraven said:
I have a similar ticket, AAA either Beckenham (Jn or New) to London. It works the barriers at Victoria, but none of the London Bridge/Waterloo/Charing Cross terminals. I would have thought New Beckenham to Charing Cross was frequent enough to be coded, but apparently not.

That’s interesting - that ticket would have been useful to me before I moved! It does seem like these AAA options are only discoverable by chance.

(I have previously had Shortlands-London Terminals seasons which have worked the barriers at Charing X/Waterloo E/London Bridge as well as the obvious Victoria and Blackfriars.)

kieron · 1 Jun 2019

urpert said:
That’s interesting - that ticket would have been useful to me before I moved! It does seem like these AAA options are only discoverable by chance.

Another one which you could use from Eden Park is Bickley-London AAA Hayes (Kent). That isn't valid as far as Petts Wood (because of easement 104, if nothing else) but could be used via Bromley North instead.

The routes between SE & Central London are quite complicated, even without considering AAA tickets.

urpert · 1 Jun 2019

kieron said:
Another one which you could use from Eden Park is Bickley-London AAA Hayes (Kent). That isn't valid as far as Petts Wood (because of easement 104, if nothing else) but could be used via Bromley North instead.

The routes between SE & Central London are quite complicated, even without considering AAA tickets.

Thanks, I’ll look at that when renewal time comes around!

A Challenge · 1 Jun 2019

urpert said:
Thanks, I’ll look at that when renewal time comes around!

You could also do a season ticket changeover.

Should my Gold Card have worked the barriers at Bromley South?

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