Not 'poor timetabling' in any sense. Timetable planners really, really aren't idiots. Just the inevitable consequence of Cambridge's geographical position. Where the fixed points of Birmingham New Street and Welwyn Viaduct meet each other (not many other places have that claim to fame). One thing or the other has to give.
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Thameslink Services / Timetable from 18 May 2019
- Thread starter gingerheid
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Not 'poor timetabling' in any sense. Timetable planners really, really aren't idiots. Just the inevitable consequence of Cambridge's geographical position. Where the fixed points of Birmingham New Street and Welwyn Viaduct meet each other (not many other places have that claim to fame). One thing or the other has to give.
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700007
Established Member
I think this was because last time the same closure happened which was about a month ago, the 700/0s were packed to the rafters full of people going to Luton Airport for the Bank Holiday weekend. It was quicker if I am correct to take the stopping train if it was the first one leaving rather than waiting another 15 minutes for a fast train.
bramling
Veteran Member
To be fair, it's not so long since the second fast Cambridge service only did King's Cross to Cambridge most of the time, so they've had to find a way of fitting it in to Ely, with the added complication of Cambridge North. It's surprising how much of the current GN timetable *wasn't* able to be designed around a completely clean sheet last May, for example the LNER service essentially runs to the same pattern as before.
SamYeager
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Looking at this from afar it seems that this timetable change is mostly OK? A few moans and groans but only up to four pages after a week wheras the last major change was into double figures in less than two days as I recall.
gingerheid
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I guess it's ok by comparison, after last May softened us up for ongoing chaos? In some ways it's still in practical terms worse than April 2018. We still have a network that is vulnerable to disruption and that can pass disruption long distances, but without the spare resources that would allow a faster recovery. We still have a shockingly inadequate weekend service.
Most annoyingly, and the thing that pains me most, we still have a TOC that frequently does the same things that a TOC that was dishonest would do, robbing us of the hope that things might get better.
Most annoyingly, and the thing that pains me most, we still have a TOC that frequently does the same things that a TOC that was dishonest would do, robbing us of the hope that things might get better.
The second fast Cambridge service started continuing to Ely before the May 2018 Thameslink changes, calling at Cambridge North, but not Waterbeach, exactly as does today. The departure times from Ely southbound were xx:52 for the Cross Country train, and xx:58 for the Great Northern.
It was the May 2018 timetable, and not changing the origin/destination to Ely, nor adding a Cambridge North stop, that led to the Great Northern train departing Ely before than the CrossCountry, and then waiting at Cambridge for the CrossCountry to overtake.
Does that really negate the people that have to walk through the last 4 coaches with a minute’s notice (if they even hear) so are unable to alight at many of the local stations.
700007
Established Member
Obviously can be a hassle but the majority of passengers alighting at intermediate stations I imagine are well seasoned passengers on this line. They will probably take notice to the fact their usual train has an additional 4 coaches and if they're travelling to stations that cannot take 8 coaches they'll definitely know to move along. One of the trade offs is that you will need to just be alert, listen to announcements and look at the PIS screen one station before yours, and be prepared to act and move quickly when need be.
Indeed so.
And then the consultation timetable had these services leaving Ely at xx57, Cam North at xx09, and Cambridge at xx14, thus hitting the required path over Welwyn. So was that timetable just fiction that they had no intent of delivering? (well, it wouldn't surprise me from GTR, but...)
(Admittedly that does seem a little tight for the CMB->CBG leg, but it seems that leaving Ely at xx56 - should be possible as the XC leaves at xx53 - ought to be enough time, with the one stop, to get out of Cambridge at xx14)
Aictos
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Yes that was due to a lightning strike affecting lineside equipment resulting in a loss of power to OHL but trains are now slowly running.
Thanks George 109. I was thinking of using the train tonight but will take the car instead. The Latest Travel News pages on the National Rail Site and the Thameslink website are as usual pathetically useless. They say "Damage to the overhead electric wires" between St Albans and Bedford but the impression from there on is that it was more of a power cut than actual damage having been caused. They always do it, but why vaguely refer to a 30 mile stretch of line rather than a specific location? It makes a big difference, because (a) if you are catching a train down wind of the problem, the chances are that once you are on it you will travel to your destination n a normal manner, but if upwind, the chances are that you will be stuck in a long queue past the affected area, and (b) if there had been no power over a 30 mile length of route, then it might be advisable not to travel until the cause of the problem had been identified, in case the power supply tripped again and everything came to a stand.
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
Lightening strike apparently. Had some serious storm conditions here in SAC about an hour ago.
vtiman
Member
Heavy lightening ?
From the TL twitter timeline this took 12 hours to resolve from the initial failure, was this major overhead damage?
Twitter thread: https://twitter.com/TLRailUK/status/1133575865797894145?s=19
Twitter thread: https://twitter.com/TLRailUK/status/1133575865797894145?s=19
You are an information controller at Three Bridges. You get a message to say the power has tripped all lines from St Albans to Bedford, probably due to a lightning strike, precise location not known. It could be OLE damage on one or more lines, it could be a local distribution fault, it could be a feeder station fault. You can see from your systems that nothing has moved for a few minutes, and the signaller is putting a block to traffic on at either end. You know staff in the electrical control room are working on alternative feeding. You know that engineers have been dispatched to the site of the main feeder that has tripped. You also know that signallers are systematically calling drivers to ascertain what, if any, damage there is to the OLE.
It’s clear that it could be a big incident; at the very least with trains at a stand for 5-10 minutes over a long stretch of track there will be significant delays for a while.
You have to get a message out, as Twitter is warming up, and passengers need to be advised that there are problems.
What would you say?
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tsr
Established Member
Most of the staff at TBROC don’t even get that level of info (or the training to interpret it). In fact the internal log spent a good chunk of time yesterday without any meaningful technical updates, even if staff had the time to read and absorb it.
The fact is that even with those limitations added in, the locations chosen were still appropriate. Indeed the customer messaging reflected the block on traffic which was chosen and implemented by Network Rail, which was basically no TL service north of St Albans whilst the power was off (and nothing really allowed much beyond St Pancras during the second failure).
In any case, specifying the infrastructure affected would have been quite confusing because the various bits affected weren’t all at stations, eg. Sundon. It’s not permitted to use these sorts of locations for PIDD (Passenger Information During Disruption).
TL too by the looks of the cancellations due to a shortage of train crew...
OwenB
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I think the answer looks to be "appallingly". Sigh.
Yes I think it was May 2017 that the extension to Ely happened. The GN 317s finished on 30/4/17 and the XX15 down from King's Cross definitely still terminated at Cambridge then and return from Cambridge at XX15. The problem now is that an XX58 departure from Ely would clash with the two hourly Ipswich to Peterborough at Ely. I wonder when/why those schedules changed.
If “Lots” = “7” in the peak direction between 1600 and midnight, all from Moorgate, then yes.
So when it's necessary to cancel services because there aren't enough drivers - sorry, "a shortage of train crew" because apparently "enough" means something different if you're a TOC - how do they decide which ones to cancel? The 17.20 and 17.25 services are cancelled tonight, which means a gap between services that stop at Harringay and Hornsey of half an hour, and a gap between Hertford loop services of 24 minutes. Is this inevitable? Is it because there's only a Welwyn service every fifteen minutes, so they don't want to cancel any of them to avoid a half hour gap there? It seems to be a weakness in the timetable that didn't exist before May 2018.
If a Driver is booked to work a diagram and there is no Driver available. All those trains and the knock on effect of those get cancelled. Seems kinda obvious really. Although it kinda depend on any rostering issues. It will be different when there is a lack of cover available; including spare cover. I would also suggest that there may still be training issues, especially with outstanding route learning so that would influence the decision on what trains to cancel.
Most bus operators serving stations with sensible TOC's I'd agree with you. With my bus planner hat on I wouldn't rely on any timetable GTR gave me to plan a bus service around, not helped by the big red triangle on the front of the actual printed timetable warning you of this
It would only be possible to make an xx14 departure from Cambridge off an xx56 start from Ely if the combination of dwell times at Cambridge and Cambridge North totalled no more than 2 minutes.
As it happens Cambridge requires a minimum 1.5 minutes (never mind any attaching) and Cambridge North at least 1 minute, so 2.5 minutes total, minimum.
Even if you could squeeze it behind the XC, that would need minute-perfect presentation nearly every hour, every day to be robust south from Ely.
Mentioning the original consultation paths, GTR perhaps expected GA/XC to move for them....instead GTR have fitted around GA/XC!
From Kings Cross:
17:12 32 minutes late
21:51 cancelled
00:47 cancelled
From St Pancras:
15:31 cancelled
16:46 cancelled
17:46 cancelled
19:01 cancelled
20:16 cancelled
21:16 cancelled
22:16 cancelled
23:16 cancelled
23:46 cancelled
00:46 cancelled
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