Problems using BZ6 tickets on LNER services

class387 · 28 May 2019

Hello all,

Today I attempted the journey as I described yesterday in my thread in the 'Fares Advice' forum:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/london-to-stevenage-query.183373/

As recommended, I attempted to buy a BZ6 to Stevenage return from the ticket office at Kings Cross. I was told that BZ6 tickets are not valid on the "high-speed" LNER services, only GN ones, and that I must buy an LNER only return from Kings Cross to Stevenage if I wanted to use an LNER train, despite possessing a valid Z1-6 travelcard. This seemed strange to me, so I asked for a reason as to why the BZ6 ticket isn't valid, given it's an Any Permitted ticket. To this I was rather rudely and condescendingly told - by two members of staff - that to use a BZ6 ticket the train must stop at the 'boundary station' (in this case Hadley Wood), which the LNER service does not (this is almost certainly false).

In the end I was willing to pay for the LNER only ticket, given it was only a few pounds more. However, could someone please confirm whether what they said about BZ6 tickets is true? If so, they are a lot less useful if one could only use them on stopping trains.

RailUK Forums

Bletchleyite · 28 May 2019

It is not correct. There used to be a rule, though, that BZ tickets were not valid on TOCs who didn't have two stops within the TfL area and therefore received no revenue from TfL. I don't think this has been the case for a while, though.

A Challenge · 28 May 2019

This is untrue - I know it was me who gave the advice, and the tickets given are valid. There is no requirement for the train to stop anywhere to do a split involving a zonal ticket (as a travelcard is) and another ticket, and where is this zone boundary for the train to stop on, the first/last station in the zones is not 'the boundary' (with the exception of stations in, for example Zones 2 and 3 such as Stratford and West Ham, but that is irrelevant for this).

ForTheLoveOf · 28 May 2019

They're simply wrong but it's no surprise that the staff misled you, as there is no train company I'm aware of that actually has a suitable programme of training in place to ensure that staff know these kinds of things.

What ticket did you end up buying in the end?

Hadders · 28 May 2019

Totally wrong from LNER. I’ve had mixed experiences at Kings Cross, some excellent staff but also some who lack knowledge.

It is worth noting that a Boundary Zone 6 to Peterborough ticket is routed ‘Great Northern/Thameslink Only’. The Stevenage ticket is ‘Any Permitted’ and so valid in LNER.

Personally I wouldn’t get into conversations with staff about what train you’re going to catch. Sadly, in these days of poorly trained ticket office staff, it’s just asking for trouble.

Please do lodge a complaint with LNER about this.

class387 · 28 May 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
They're simply wrong but it's no surprise that the staff misled you, as there is no train company I'm aware of that actually has a suitable programme of training in place to ensure that staff know these kinds of things.

What ticket did you end up buying in the end?

A Kings Cross to Stevenage LNER only ticket, as recommended to me by the staff. Is there a reason why they tried to force me into buying a LNER-priced ticket rather than a GTR-priced one?

I'm not sure it is worth complaining for £3, but I am certainly not impressed by the arrogance of their ticket staff ("You won't understand why it isn't valid - don't waste time trying to prove me wrong"). Good to know that I was right for future travel though.

A Challenge · 28 May 2019

class387 said:
A Kings Cross to Stevenage LNER only ticket, as recommended to me by the staff. Is there a reason why they tried to force me into buying a LNER-priced ticket rather than a GTR-priced one?

I'm not sure it is worth complaining for £3, but I am certainly not impressed by the arrogance of their ticket staff ("You won't understand why it isn't valid - don't waste time trying to prove me wrong"). Good to know that I was right for future travel though.

LNER would get not only more revenue but also a higher percentage of this larger amount, though I doubt it was malicious on the part of LNER and it makes little personal difference to the staff member!

He is right, you won't understand why it isn't valid - as there is no reason it isn't valid to understand!

Hadders · 28 May 2019

class387 said:
I'm not sure it is worth complaining for £3, but I am certainly not impressed by the arrogance of their ticket staff ("You won't understand why it isn't valid - don't waste time trying to prove me wrong"). Good to know that I was right for future travel though.

I'd definitely complain and I hope you do.

It isn't the money, it's the principle and the attitude shown by staff that needs to be addressed. Unless passengers take a stand it'll just carry on.

ForTheLoveOf · 28 May 2019

class387 said:
A Kings Cross to Stevenage LNER only ticket, as recommended to me by the staff. Is there a reason why they tried to force me into buying a LNER-priced ticket rather than a GTR-priced one?

I'm not sure it is worth complaining for £3, but I am certainly not impressed by the arrogance of their ticket staff ("You won't understand why it isn't valid - don't waste time trying to prove me wrong"). Good to know that I was right for future travel though.

They'll earn their employer more money! I wouldn't be surprised if there's been a memo sent round instructing staff to push LNER-only fares, due to the advantages they offer to the company, rather than often only slightly more expensive interavailable fares.

Definitely contact LNER and raise a stink. They have failed to ensure there are mechanisms that allow for their staff to be trained adequately; now they can bear the consequences (and a refund of the £3 you've been overcharged by is not going to cut it!).

Ianno87 · 28 May 2019

I've had such nonesense from an EMT train manager before now. Complaint letter resulted in full refund of the day travelcard and the extension.

class387 · 28 May 2019

Hadders said:
I'd definitely complain and I hope you do.

It isn't the money, it's the principle and the attitude shown by staff that needs to be addressed. Unless passengers take a stand it'll just carry on.

Agreed - complaint sent.

furlong · 28 May 2019

You'd think that LNER might have been aware of https://boundaryfares.com/ and have taken action to try to avoid the same thing happening to them! You might like to report it to the people behind that website in case they are considering including LNER in a future claim.

Kite159 · 28 May 2019

class387 said:
A Kings Cross to Stevenage LNER only ticket, as recommended to me by the staff. Is there a reason why they tried to force me into buying a LNER-priced ticket rather than a GTR-priced one?

I'm not sure it is worth complaining for £3, but I am certainly not impressed by the arrogance of their ticket staff ("You won't understand why it isn't valid - don't waste time trying to prove me wrong"). Good to know that I was right for future travel though.

LNER would get 100% of the revenue from a Kings Cross - Stevenage LNER only ticket, whereas they would get probably get a third (ish) of the revenue of the standard BZ6 - Stevenage fare.

For future reference I believe the EMT branded TVMs at St Pancras sell tickets from boundary zones, also the GTR branded TVMs at Kings Cross might do (I haven't checked recently to see if the function has been turned back on)

Haywain · 28 May 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
I wouldn't be surprised if there's been a memo sent round instructing staff to push LNER-only fares,

I'd be absolutely astonished if anything like that has happened.

yorkie · 28 May 2019

class387 said:
To this I was rather rudely and condescendingly told - by two members of staff - that to use a BZ6 ticket the train must stop at the 'boundary station' (in this case Hadley Wood), which the LNER service does not (this is almost certainly false).

I wouldn't trust anything people like that say quite frankly.

class387 said:
could someone please confirm whether what they said about BZ6 tickets is true?

It's not true. They are inventing rules that don't exist.

robbeech · 29 May 2019

As others have said they’re making the rules up. But I don’t think they’re specifically doing it to make money. They haven’t been trained so to save them looking stupid (which has failed) they make something up and say it with authority. Sadly it comes across as arrogant. I assume when you used the line “You won’t understand why it isn’t valid - don’t waste your time trying to prove me wrong” that this is you paraphrasing and describing their attitude and not what they actually said.
If they did say that then frankly they ought to be dismissed, especially given they’re wrong. I for one would terminate the contract if anyone who spoke to a customer of mine like that, particularly if they were wrong.

najaB · 29 May 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
They'll earn their employer more money! I wouldn't be surprised if there's been a memo sent round instructing staff to push LNER-only fares, due to the advantages they offer to the company, rather than often only slightly more expensive interavailable fares.

[Citation needed]

TUC · 29 May 2019

The frustrating aspect of cases like this is that it’s never been easier for staff to check validity for themselves by going online.

class387 · 29 May 2019

robbeech said:
As others have said they’re making the rules up. But I don’t think they’re specifically doing it to make money. They haven’t been trained so to save them looking stupid (which has failed) they make something up and say it with authority. Sadly it comes across as arrogant. I assume when you used the line “You won’t understand why it isn’t valid - don’t waste your time trying to prove me wrong” that this is you paraphrasing and describing their attitude and not what they actually said.
If they did say that then frankly they ought to be dismissed, especially given they’re wrong. I for one would terminate the contract if anyone who spoke to a customer of mine like that, particularly if they were wrong.

I paraphrased slightly, but those exact words were used.

Haywain · 29 May 2019

class387 said:
I paraphrased slightly, but those exact words were used.

To paraphrase is to express the meaning of something while changing the words. So was it those exact words or have you paraphrased?

class387 · 29 May 2019

Haywain said:
To paraphrase is to express the meaning of something while changing the words. So was it those exact words or have you paraphrased?

“You won’t understand why it isn’t valid" - exact words said when I asked why it wasn't valid.
"Don’t waste your time trying to prove me wrong” - paraphrased - at the end of the conversation I said that I would look up the fare conditions and come back, since there was an hour until my train. He said something more like "Sure, go and waste an hour getting people to tell you the exact same thing that I've already told you".

mallard · 29 May 2019

class387 said:
“You won’t understand why it isn’t valid" - exact words said when I asked why it wasn't valid.

Well, if the ticket restrictions are so obscure and complex that, at the staff member's own admission, the passenger cannot be expected to understand them, there's little chance a court would uphold them either...

Also, why do people on this forum have such an issue believing that TOCs are out to make money? They're for-profit businesses with no effective regulation over how they treat their customers. If they give incorrect advice that increases revenue, the absolute worst that might happen is that a completely different department has to issue a refund (likely very begrudgingly, as a "gesture of goodwill" without ever admitting to being wrong), while their department manager gets to boast about how they're increasing revenue. It's not as those scams like this are uncommon...

Haywain · 29 May 2019

mallard said:
Also, why do people on this forum have such an issue believing that TOCs are out to make money? They're for-profit businesses with no effective regulation over how they treat their customers. If they give incorrect advice that increases revenue, the absolute worst that might happen is that a completely different department has to issue a refund (likely very begrudgingly, as a "gesture of goodwill" without ever admitting to being wrong), while their department manager gets to boast about how they're increasing revenue. It's not as those scams like this are uncommon...

Everybody understands that TOCs are profit making entities but what many of us don't believe is that examples of awful customer service such as this are committed with the intention of increasing profit for the company.

Bletchleyite · 29 May 2019

Haywain said:
Everybody understands that TOCs are profit making entities but what many of us don't believe is that examples of awful customer service such as this are committed with the intention of increasing profit for the company.

I would agree. If you consider that this did used to be the rule, it is not difficult for someone who is just a bit incompetent or lazy (but also arrogant) to draw that conclusion and be unwilling to be corrected on it.

Never assume conspiracy...

(edited to remove incorrect information on fares routeings)

Haywain · 29 May 2019

Bletchleyite said:
(b) the Stevenage ticket is routed GTR only (or whatever it is)

From Boundary Zone 6, tickets are routed Any-Permitted. From London Terminals also Any-Permitted, and from Kings Cross (specifically) LNER Only.

35B · 29 May 2019

Haywain said:
Everybody understands that TOCs are profit making entities but what many of us don't believe is that examples of awful customer service such as this are committed with the intention of increasing profit for the company.

But they are tolerated and allowed to persist because it costs money to deal with them, money that will not be recouped in fares.

Haywain · 29 May 2019

35B said:
But they are tolerated and allowed to persist because it costs money to deal with them, money that will not be recouped in fares.

Your reasoning is wrong, it's much more about structure and overstretched management being unable to effectively deal with what are, relatively (for the business), minor issues.

mallard · 29 May 2019

Haywain said:
Everybody understands that TOCs are profit making entities but what many of us don't believe is that examples of awful customer service such as this are committed with the intention of increasing profit for the company.

I don't believe there's some moustache-twirling villain coming up with new way to put the squeeze on passengers, but I don't think it's even slightly unreasonable to believe that there are plenty of managers who see only the bottom-line, don't care what it means for the travelling public and pass on that attitude to their subordinates (deliberately or not). I also don't think it's unreasonable to assume that the TOCs themselves are unlikely to want to reign in behaviour that increases their profits.

While TOCs can continue these scams without meaningful consequence, they'll continue and worsen.

Bletchleyite · 29 May 2019

Haywain said:
From Boundary Zone 6, tickets are routed Any-Permitted. From London Terminals also Any-Permitted, and from Kings Cross (specifically) LNER Only.

Indeed they are. No idea where I got that from, I'll edit the post to avoid confusion.

class387 · 11 Jun 2019

Should I now be chasing up the complaint given that 10 working days have passed with no response?

Problems using BZ6 tickets on LNER services

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