LNR new WCML timetable, May 2019 (in open data feeds)

Bletchleyite · 22 May 2019

RealTrains07 said:
How does a failure on the rugeley branch affect tring stoppers? Are we talking the rugeley trent line or rugeley wallsall line

I mean the latter.

The whole thing is interworked, so while I don't know the diagrams in detail it was more an example. A Rugeley-Euston 350 getting stuck on that branch could well mean it not getting to Euston to work to Tring (or wherever) later on. Then that might mean its traincrew are displaced and so a Trent Valley gets canned, and so on until the whole thing collapses in (metaphorical) flames, only to be sorted out by the gap in service overnight (other than the 0134 ex EUS/0330 ex MKC which is the only set that stays out all night).

Talking of the 0330, a very large number of users of that train are LUL employees heading down to start an early shift, so if it's cancelled they'll all be an hour and a bit late for work (the 0430ish is the next train, and a bustitution isn't really viable of an all-stations run as it takes about 3 hours). This being the case, it's quite possible that, say, a broken window at Rugeley Town in the late afternoon today could result in a cancellation on the Victoria Line tomorrow morning.

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sufian123 · 22 May 2019

RealTrains07 said:
How does a failure on the rugeley branch affect tring stoppers? Are we talking the rugeley trent line or rugeley wallsall line

Cause those ones are the extension of the Tring and Milton Keynes terminator. Well they used to. They delay then that’s effects commuters at the bottom or top.

RealTrains07 · 22 May 2019

sufian123 said:
Cause those ones are the extension of the Tring and Milton Keynes terminator. Well they used to. They delay then that’s effects commuters at the bottom or top.

I thought that the rugeley branch was an extension of one of the euston to birmingham services?

sufian123 · 22 May 2019

RealTrains07 said:
I thought that the rugeley branch was an extension of one of the euston to birmingham services?

No. xx24 to Milton Keynes local services. xx13 extension to Crewe and Rugeley one is.

Bletchleyite · 22 May 2019

sufian123 said:
No. xx24 to Milton Keynes local services. xx13 extension to Crewe and Rugeley one is.

The xx52 now terminates at MKC - was that a swap? Or were there previously 2tph that did?

sufian123 · 22 May 2019

Bletchleyite said:
The xx52 now terminates at MKC - was that a swap? Or were there previously 2tph that did?

xx52 used to go to Northampton, then form a Birmingham service. Now as far as Milton Keynes. Yes swapped them around.

sufian123 · 22 May 2019

Bletchleyite said:
The xx52 now terminates at MKC - was that a swap? Or were there previously 2tph that did?

Used to be xx24 Milton Keynes and xx52 or 54 Northampton.

pt_mad · 22 May 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Same with the Crewe services - have pairs of 350s stay together all day and crews just work the whole thing on a wholly self-contained basis (i.e. you book on, you work Trent Valleys (with appropriate breaks), you go home). Then if it ends up that you've got one 45 minutes late, cancel a round trip or turn it short (pay VT to carry the passengers, who won't be annoyed by that) and it's sorted out easily.

If that means more units being required, get some more 319s in, they're not all spoken for, are they?

Aye but the train from Crewe arrives Euston xx50ish and out at xx46 and you're keeping the same units on, how can they occupy a platform at Euston for 50 odd minutes?

Bletchleyite · 22 May 2019

pt_mad said:
Aye but the train from Crewe arrives Euston xx50ish and out at xx46 and you're keeping the same units on, how can they occupy a platform at Euston for 50 odd minutes?

It would require somewhat of a major rejig of the timetable, so indeed probably not simple.

That said, you could take some of the complexity out by avoiding crew changes (by having all crews signing Class 350s sign all routes that Class 350s can operate). I went to Birmingham this evening, and the 2054 service to Euston was delayed 10 minutes due to waiting for a member of traincrew arriving on a northbound service. At least if the crews stayed with the units (swapping only onto/off breaks rather than other units) this complexity would be avoided.

There wasn't a lot that wasn't delayed. I think the only thing that is stopping this turning into a complete Northern-style calamity is that New St has 12 through platforms rather than 2.

To whoever was talking about splits/joins at Northampton, by the way, we started as a 4-car (well loaded but not overcrowded) and picked up another 8 at Northampton. So there are a number of splits/joins not immediately visible in the timetable or on RTT.

tommy2215 · 23 May 2019

The Liverpool to Euston via Birmingham services have not fared well... looking at Penkridge (where all of them call) on On Time Trains, on Monday only 9% of trains arrived on time there, then only 5% on Tuesday and only 6% yesterday. The number of on-time trains at Penkridge was low before, but this is a significant drop in punctuality even from the low percentages before.

bionic · 23 May 2019

tommy2215 said:
The Liverpool to Euston via Birmingham services have not fared well... looking at Penkridge (where all of them call) on On Time Trains, on Monday only 9% of trains arrived on time there, then only 5% on Tuesday and only 6% yesterday. The number of on-time trains at Penkridge was low before, but this is a significant drop in punctuality even from the low percentages before.

The fact the vast majority of trains at Penkridge are only 1-2 minutes late would suggest a timing issue with that station rather than a performance issue with the trains. If they left Stafford or Wolverhampton on time and were a minute late at Penkridge then I would suggest it is the timings. There are quite a few stations around the country where the timings are pretty much unachievable and trains are always a minute or two late.

RealTrains07 · 23 May 2019

bionic said:
The fact the vast majority of trains at Penkridge are only 1-2 minutes late would suggest a timing issue with that station rather than a performance issue with the trains. If they left Stafford or Wolverhampton on time and were a minute late at Penkridge then I would suggest it is the timings. There are quite a few stations around the country where the timings are pretty much unachievable and trains are always a minute or two late.

Agree, happens at stone with sometimes trains catching up

Bletchleyite · 23 May 2019

RealTrains07 said:
Agree, happens at stone with sometimes trains catching up

Under the old timetable there were a number of trains, mostly slow-line, that near enough always ran about 5 minutes late even from Harrow. That's just sloppy timetabling.

Ianno87 · 23 May 2019

bionic said:
The fact the vast majority of trains at Penkridge are only 1-2 minutes late would suggest a timing issue with that station rather than a performance issue with the trains. If they left Stafford or Wolverhampton on time and were a minute late at Penkridge then I would suggest it is the timings. There are quite a few stations around the country where the timings are pretty much unachievable and trains are always a minute or two late.

RealTrains07 said:
Agree, happens at stone with sometimes trains catching up

Sometimes deliberate - stops the train hanging round needlessly at Penkridge waiting time.

Bletchleyite said:
Under the old timetable there were a number of trains, mostly slow-line, that near enough always ran about 5 minutes late even from Harrow. That's just sloppy timetabling.

Or adjusting the timetable to refleft actual performance whilst complying with the Timetable Planning Rules means trains being removed from the timetable. It's a compromise.

Bletchleyite · 29 May 2019

Ianno87 said:
Or adjusting the timetable to refleft actual performance whilst complying with the Timetable Planning Rules means trains being removed from the timetable. It's a compromise.

You see, I have an issue with that. If the timetable planning rules exist and are mandatory to ensure a reliable service, I don't see why TOCs should be able to introduce services that conflict with the principles of them, which these ones clearly do even if they don't conflict with the letter of them. Or if they are not fit for purpose, they should be changed so they are.

Meanwhile, I think my hat is entirely safe - an awful performance yesterday, again. Caused again by outside matters (signal failure), but the knock-on effect rippled across the network for hours. It really has not worked and the services really need splitting back up, or at least the diagrams simplifying and staff training on more routes so they work a service throughout then have their PNB at the end. I don't like to have to say "told you so", but told you so.

It was never going to work, and I fear this (delays, cancellations and generally poor service) is just the new status quo, not to mention heavier loadings from people using the through services because they're cheaper than VT meaning those in the core markets are served more poorly than they were.

700007 · 29 May 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Under the old timetable there were a number of trains, mostly slow-line, that near enough always ran about 5 minutes late even from Harrow. That's just sloppy timetabling.

Yes as a former commuter on that line and I still irregularly use it, the punctuality was terrible at Harrow & Wealdstone southbound. Trains were constantly losing a few minutes and never ran on time. One of the issues on that line (I don't know if it is the guard or the trains themselves) but the door release takes far too long. Not as in the door itself opening (although like all Desiros they are a bit slower than others), but for the Green button and sounds to release the door takes up to half a minute after the train has stopped. This easily loses a lot of time the more stations the train stops at and it is an issue that needs to be addressed.

Ianno87 · 29 May 2019

Bletchleyite said:
You see, I have an issue with that. If the timetable planning rules exist and are mandatory to ensure a reliable service, I don't see why TOCs should be able to introduce services that conflict with the principles of them, which these ones clearly do even if they don't conflict with the letter of them. Or if they are not fit for purpose, they should be changed so they are.

Fine, if losing services (thus passenger capacity) is accepted as a probable consequence/trade-off for better right-time performance.

Most commuters, however, prefer adequate capacity to get a seat. And operators enough trains to shift the people (not bunching passengers onto fewer services left, which just snowballs the problem onto the remaining trains).

87015 · 29 May 2019

Ianno87 said:
Fine, if losing services (thus passenger capacity) is accepted as a probable consequence/trade-off for better right-time performance.

Most commuters, however, prefer adequate capacity to get a seat. And operators enough trains to shift the people (not bunching passengers onto fewer services left, which just snowballs the problem onto the remaining trains).

“Sloppy” operating is also very different to sloppy “timetabling”...

Bletchleyite · 29 May 2019

700007 said:
Yes as a former commuter on that line and I still irregularly use it, the punctuality was terrible at Harrow & Wealdstone southbound. Trains were constantly losing a few minutes and never ran on time. One of the issues on that line (I don't know if it is the guard or the trains themselves) but the door release takes far too long. Not as in the door itself opening (although like all Desiros they are a bit slower than others), but for the Green button and sounds to release the door takes up to half a minute after the train has stopped. This easily loses a lot of time the more stations the train stops at and it is an issue that needs to be addressed.

They need to implement driver release. It would save something like 10-15 minutes on a Lime St to Euston through service.

DavidGrain · 29 May 2019

Is there a safety issue with the driver opening the doors? After all the driver is the first to know when the train has stopped. The guard has to check that the train has stopped before releasing the doors.

Bletchleyite · 29 May 2019

DavidGrain said:
Is there a safety issue with the driver opening the doors? After all the driver is the first to know when the train has stopped. The guard has to check that the train has stopped before releasing the doors.

Some would argue it to be less safe. However, Virgin West Coast, CrossCountry and Southern have been operating most if not all of their non-DOO trains in this manner for years so it's clearly safe enough.

What it would do on LNR is save about 10-20 seconds per stop.

Bletchleyite · 29 May 2019

Ianno87 said:
Fine, if losing services (thus passenger capacity) is accepted as a probable consequence/trade-off for better right-time performance.

I think you could gain the capacity by using the rolling stock to extend more peak services to/from Euston to 12-car. There are only presently about 6 12-car services.

Mind you, this was a problem with a number of trains even before the latest timetable rejig added a couple of extra ones. So I'm more inclined to think it's either unrealistic timetabling, sloppy operations or a bit of both.

centraltrains · 29 May 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Some would argue it to be less safe. However, Virgin West Coast, CrossCountry and Southern have been operating most if not all of their non-DOO trains in this manner for years so it's clearly safe enough.

What it would do on LNR is save about 10-20 seconds per stop.

What happens if the driver stops at the wrong stop marker with those systems? I would say its fairly common that a driver stops at the wrong marker and the guard has to give the bell to nudge up. (Observed it about 4 times over 5 years on the Snow Hill lines)

RealTrains07 · 29 May 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I don't see why TOCs should be able to introduce services that conflict with the principles of them, which these ones clearly do even if they don't conflict with the letter of them. Or if they are not fit for purpose, they should be changed so they are.

How else do you think the new services could have been added?

“Bletchleyite said:
Meanwhile, I think my hat is entirely safe - an awful performance yesterday, again. Caused again by outside matters (signal failure), but the knock-on effect rippled across the network for hours. It really has not worked and the services really need splitting back up, or at least the diagrams simplifying and staff training on more routes so they work a service throughout then have their PNB at the end. I don't like to have to say "told you so", but told you so.

It was never going to work, and I fear this (delays, cancellations and generally poor service) is just the new status quo, not to mention heavier loadings from people using the through services because they're cheaper than VT meaning those in the core markets are served more poorly than they were.

Problem is if the services were all split up with no joins or detachments then either we have a platform capacity issue on some lines or we have stock shortages on others, i dont see how we could have done it any other way than now considering LNR has only a limited number of fast trains

Bletchleyite said:
I think you could gain the capacity by using the rolling stock to extend more peak services to/from Euston to 12-car. There are only presently about 6 12-car services.Mind you, this was a problem with a number of trains even before the latest timetable rejig added a couple of extra ones. So I'm more inclined to think it's either unrealistic timetabling, sloppy operations or a bit of both.

Ianno87 said:
Fine, if losing services (thus passenger capacity) is accepted as a probable consequence/trade-off for better right-time performance.
Most commuters, however, prefer adequate capacity to get a seat. And operators enough trains to shift the people (not bunching passengers onto fewer services left, which just snowballs the problem onto the remaining trains).

Still awaiting aventras though, you think the new aventra fleet will improve things cause i cant see things getting worse once they are all in service?

700007 said:
Yes as a former commuter on that line and I still irregularly use it, the punctuality was terrible at Harrow & Wealdstone southbound. Trains were constantly losing a few minutes and never ran on time. One of the issues on that line (I don't know if it is the guard or the trains themselves) but the door release takes far too long. Not as in the door itself opening (although like all Desiros they are a bit slower than others), but for the Green button and sounds to release the door takes up to half a minute after the train has stopped. This easily loses a lot of time the more stations the train stops at and it is an issue that needs to be addressed.

The problem cant be just put on an entire fleet. Door opening time does very on every individual desiro unit. I have been on some which doors have opened very quick compared to others.

driver_m · 29 May 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Some would argue it to be less safe. However, Virgin West Coast, CrossCountry and Southern have been operating most if not all of their non-DOO trains in this manner for years so it's clearly safe enough.

What it would do on LNR is save about 10-20 seconds per stop.

If you’re talking about how it’s done with us on VT, then possibly without going into the union disputes that would arise, but aren’t the physically slow nature of the doors releasing, the issue?

Also to raise a point what you said earlier about drivers having PNBs at end of journey, you’d likely have trouble on your hands. Assuming you want a Crewe driver to work a Liverpool-Euston in its entirety. Then that’s a long time sat in a cab without a break considering there aren’t messroom facilities for LNR staff at Lime St. (Unless they can use Northerns) You’d have to rescope the entire diagramming of LNR. Even if you wanted to roughly keep the staff where they are now I’d like to know how you’d propose to utilise these traincrews based on current working practices, and I don’t know their T&C’s, so how would you do it?

You have got a downer on this crewing system. But we’ve been doing the same thing for years with our Anglo-Scot services using various depots to get them with little issue.

Pumbaa · 29 May 2019

Current policy is that Conductor must be physically standing on platform before releasing passenger doors. It’s abysmally slow on Desiro stock.

As mentioned elsewhere, the rest of the industry has been able to move on, so get rid of it.

causton · 29 May 2019

driver_m said:
If you’re talking about how it’s done with us on VT, then possibly without going into the union disputes that would arise, but aren’t the physically slow nature of the doors releasing, the issue?

No, it's the WMT policy. Even SWR staff who use what is essentially the same train (and guards release) have commented on how slow the door release is, so there must be something to it! Definitely should go for driver open, guard close.

Bletchleyite · 29 May 2019

causton said:
No, it's the WMT policy. Even SWR staff who use what is essentially the same train (and guards release) have commented on how slow the door release is, so there must be something to it! Definitely should go for driver open, guard close.

SWR permit the guard, at their option, if they are sure the train is platformed (and woe betide them if it isn't), to release all doors at once, bypassing the local step. This would explain why it's quicker on SWR sometimes than LNR, and would also solve the problem. Markings have been added to several south WCML platforms which are said to be for this purpose but haven't been used yet.

But yes, I'd go for the VT style approach - driver unlocks, guard dispatches. I believe this is the most pragmatic option and the most time-efficient, and the safety issue could be worked around by way of installing ASDO. This approach is already used for the Southern services on the WCML.

On the Marston Vale with the even slower doors this would save minutes on an end to end run.

RealTrains07 · 31 May 2019

The timetable is failing again today with services cancelled left right and center i can see why people are frustrated with the constant split and joins of trains.

Had a delayed train out of birmingham today because of delay to train separation.

Anyone else experience issues with the timetable directly to do with the way services are joined and split?

The Planner · 31 May 2019

On another forum that the Chase isn't fairing very well on occasion.

LNR new WCML timetable, May 2019 (in open data feeds)

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