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Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

EE Andy b1

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The question isn't how old they are but how much longer they will give good service without hugely expensive (and therefore not good value) maintainence.

Well these 769s are not giving any good service at the moment as we are still waiting for one to carry fare paying passengers. Beyond a joke!

They should have bought Stadler if funds could have been found.
 
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a_c_skinner

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I should have said would, not will. We will see which, but I am becoming more cautious about how this project will turn out.
 

EE Andy b1

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The 319s are doing a fair job up North now though, because they have to. No idea on how reliable they are for sure but that extra capacity must help somewhat.
 

Pete_uk

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Such a good idea this, got my thumbs up. Plenty of shells to go around and engines to go under them. Yet it turns out VivaRail - who's project to reuse ex underground stock was considered 'silly' - have units in service.

The 769s are still parked up!
 

EE Andy b1

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So how much time and money has now been wasted on what originally looked like a good idea as a stop gap but now just another white elephant?

Let's hope after a change in government that they see sense and proceed with further electrification and fill the gaps.

It's the only way forward!!
 

big all

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So how much time and money has now been wasted on what originally looked like a good idea as a stop gap but now just another white elephant?

Let's hope after a change in government that they see sense and proceed with further electrification and fill the gaps.

It's the only way forward!!
whilst there do seem to be a few teething problems some seeming more crutial than others
enginuity invention and adaption will have pit falls along the way whilst frustrating can often be a far better solution inn the short or long term often not the best solution but the best where finances cannot be found for the basic needs off the poorest in society

so electrification will not often be a major requirement for a government both numbed by brexit and where a dogma with tax cuts is more important over a well rounded fair society
 
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Bertie the bus

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whilst there do seem to be a few teething problems some seeming more crutial than others
Issues are usually described as teething problems when they occur shortly after entering service. If only that was the case with the 769s! I think the issues with the 769s would be more accurately described as design or build faults.
 
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The Ham

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So how much time and money has now been wasted on what originally looked like a good idea as a stop gap but now just another white elephant?

Let's hope after a change in government that they see sense and proceed with further electrification and fill the gaps.

It's the only way forward!!

Whilst I agree that we should be looking to electrify more the government has invested relatively little money into the project (at least compared to electrification).

You could point to a lot worse sign offs made by the DfT like the pizza delivery Brexit Ferry contract.
 

Senna1210

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The 769 is not a new unit and has been in storage a long time a lot of the issues might just be related to that
 

Brissle Girl

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Just looking back at the history of this. Modern Railways reported (Dec 16) "rumours of outlandish plans". Confirmed in Dec by Porterbrook, and reported in the Feb 17 edition, with entry into service due in spring 18, so 15-18 months after announcement. Now entry into service is being signalled as Dec 19, some 36 months after announcement.

In contrast, Greater Anglia signed the contract for the Stadler Class 755 in October 16, and the first units are expected into service in June.
 

thealexweb

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Porterbrook originally estimated the production costs of 769s would be 50% of new build hybrids. Do we have an up to date estimate?
 

WatcherZero

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Don't know, they have been paying out quite hefty penalty payments for late delivery and paying the leasing costs of other stock at Northern that Northern were forced to take on to cover.
 

Bovverboy

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This was running between Oxford Road and Cornbrook and back:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y69345/2019/06/02/advanced
I thought it was a 769 going out (I only had a brief side view) but it came back Pan up, so maybe it was only a 319 after all.
Maybe somebody knows more?

It's an ECS working between arriving from/departing to Blackpool North, so I think we can be sure it was a 319.

I must admit I didn't know about this working, things must be getting desperate if units have to be deported to Old Trafford to get them out of the way. I see that the next two Oxford Road terminators don't do the same, they simply lie over in platform 5, and the intervening CLC stopper has to be put out to grass in platform 1.

Shades of when a 323 used to lurk at Old Trafford before doing the c.1713 NSSu Deansgate to Stoke. (The next thing we know someone will be deciding that 319s aren't cleared to Old Trafford!)

Is there a reason why these three journeys can't continue to the Airport? There's no saving of a unit by terminating at Oxford Road.

EDIT: Oops! Beaten by JN114.
 

_toommm_

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It's an ECS working between arriving from/departing to Blackpool North, so I think we can be sure it was a 319.

I must admit I didn't know about this working, things must be getting desperate if units have to be deported to Old Trafford to get them out of the way. I see that the next two Oxford Road terminators don't do the same, they simply lie over in platform 5, and the intervening CLC stopper has to be put out to grass in platform 1.

Shades of when a 323 used to lurk at Old Trafford before doing the c.1713 NSSu Deansgate to Stoke. (The next thing we know someone will be deciding that 319s aren't cleared to Old Trafford!)

Is there a reason why these three journeys can't continue to the Airport? There's no saving of a unit by terminating at Oxford Road.

EDIT: Oops! Beaten by JN114.

It would be incredibly tight to send it to the airport and back in the 28 minutes it takes to do the ECS move. Even if it ran non-stop from Picc to the Airport, it may not even be possible...
 

Bovverboy

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It would be incredibly tight to send it to the airport and back in the 28 minutes it takes to do the ECS move. Even if it ran non-stop from Picc to the Airport, it may not even be possible...

On Sundays trains ex-Blackpool North generally arrive Oxford Road xx.11-xx.14 and depart xx.02-xx.05, giving them between 49 and 54 minutes to get to the airport and back, with calls at Piccadilly and Heald Green both ways. All arrivals between 1311 and 2214 go through to the airport, but the 1013, 1113, and 1211 arrivals do not, even though they have virtually the same amount of time available to do it as the rest. (The 0902 and 2310 arrivals are special cases, they don't return to Blackpool at all).
 

507021

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It would appear the hydrogen demonstrator is designated Class 799, with a photo of the demonstrator unit (799001) on Richard Clinnick's Twitter feed.
 

AndrewE

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It would appear the hydrogen demonstrator is designated Class 799, with a photo of the demonstrator unit (799001) on Richard Clinnick's Twitter feed.
well... given that even a 769 based on proven technology is still "jam tomorrow" (and has yet to be seen running outside the GCR) I wouldn't put any money on when a completely new (to the UK) "Hydrogen demonstrator" might turn a wheel, let alone do anything useful!
It seems to be a symptom of business today: all media hype and no delivery (other less polite phrases come to mind.) Compare all this with the HST, which had very little advance publicity that I remember but revolutionised our railways.
 

WatcherZero

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HST wasn't fast into service, the prototype was finished in August 1972, the first production cars were delivered in late 1975 3 years later and it first entered service in October 1976 over 4 years later.

From ordering in 1970 (When BrB realised APT wouldn't be in service any time soon, and they called it right 14 years to approval for service and then it was only in service for 3 years because the HST had overshadowed it) to service it was a full 6 years.
 

samuelmorris

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It probably has a lot to do with private franchises wishing to set target dates, either for fulfillment of their franchise obligations or to advertise what they're doing to the public. I could be wrong but I have my doubts there would have been 'HST - coming 1975' posters banded around back then.
 

43096

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HST wasn't fast into service, the prototype was finished in August 1972, the first production cars were delivered in late 1975 3 years later and it first entered service in October 1976 over 4 years later.

From ordering in 1970 (When BrB realised APT wouldn't be in service any time soon, and they called it right 14 years to approval for service and then it was only in service for 3 years because the HST had overshadowed it) to service it was a full 6 years.
Production HST sets entered service before October 1976, but on existing timings. October 76 was the start of the 125mph service.

If you don’t think HST was fast into service, have a look at IEP. From project start to in service of the first train was over 12 years. In that time, BR not only designed, built and tested the prototype HST, but ordered, built and commissioned all 95 production HSTs.
 

WatcherZero

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Wasn't that slow, from order being signed in March 2011 to entry in service in October 2017, its true tender was done in 2007 and preferred bidder selected in 2009 but in the two years between 2009 and 2011 the government didn't do anything as it dithered. In fact the original timetable was they would place an order in 2008. test runs in 2013 and first in service would be 2015 seven years later, so the duration from contract award to test runs and to entry in service both occurred a year faster than originally timetabled.
 

Chris125

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It would appear the hydrogen demonstrator is designated Class 799, with a photo of the demonstrator unit (799001) on Richard Clinnick's Twitter feed.

Just looks like vinyl on a stored 319, the same trick they did for a '769'.
 

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