Is this true or was conductor trying it on?

i have been using northern trains every week for last few years. I have a disabled rail card for discount. I have around a year back learnt I can still buy a ticket at the lower rate using my rail card on the train. So I have started doing this, but yesterday the conductor was going to charge me £10.50 which is the cost with railcard before 9am or 8.30 or whenever the higher rate is. I asked why it was that much as it was normally £8.90 at that time. She then said ok she would change it to £8.90 but said the train companies were clamping down on people buying tickets on train and i wouldn’t be able to get discount on train anymore. Now if I didn’t get discount the cost would be more than £10.50 so I’m wondering if she was just trying to over charge or if she hadn’t changed the time to the later time as this was 9.05 train so the first train with lower price of the day.

Which station was it, if you start from a station with a Ticket Machine you need to buy a ticket before you board the train (though there are exceptions if your disability makes it impossible for you to use the machine) or you can be charged the full undiscounted anytime fare, though it sounds like that isn't what happened, it was somewhere in between, so I'm not sure what happened there.

Kmo86 said:

i have been using northern trains every week for last few years. I have a disabled rail card for discount. I have around a year back learnt I can still buy a ticket at the lower rate using my rail card on the train. So I have started doing this, but yesterday the conductor was going to charge me £10.50 which is the cost with railcard before 9am or 8.30 or whenever the higher rate is. I asked why it was that much as it was normally £8.90 at that time. She then said ok she would change it to £8.90 but said the train companies were clamping down on people buying tickets on train and i wouldn’t be able to get discount on train anymore. Now if I didn’t get discount the cost would be more than £10.50 so I’m wondering if she was just trying to over charge or if she hadn’t changed the time to the later time as this was 9.05 train so the first train with lower price of the day.

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From the difference in prices it sounds like she was originally trying to sell you an Anytime Day Return instead of an Off-Peak Day Return, but both with your Railcard discount.

Many conductors sell Off-Peak tickets with a Railcard discount even where a Railcard holder other than a Disabled Railcard holder has had the opportunity to buy before boarding - where, accordingly, they would be perfectly entitled to sell them only an Anytime (Day) Single without a Railcard discount.

And even those conductors who are not quite as lenient as that will tend to, as a general rule, afford this privilege to Disabled Railcard holders.

However, the legal position is as follows, as explained by Condition 2.7 of your Railcard Terms (which you no doubt read when you signed your Railcard to indicate you had read and agreed to its terms ):

2.7 You must buy the Tickets before boarding the train unless:

2.7.1. there was no ticket office at the station at which you began the journey or if the ticket office was closed, and there was no working ticket machine from which you could buy discounted tickets; or

2.7.2. you have a disability which prevented you accessing ticket retailing facilities.

In these cases you will be able to use your Railcard to buy tickets on the train or at your destination.

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I hope that clarifies the position!

The following extract is from the terms and conditions for a Disabled Person's Railcard:

2.7. You must buy the Tickets before boarding the train unless:

2.7.1. there was no ticket office at the station at which you began the journey or if the ticket office was closed, and there was no working ticket machine from which you could buy discounted tickets; or

2.7.2. you have a disability which prevented you accessing ticket retailing facilities.

In these cases you will be able to use your Railcard to buy tickets on the train or at your destination.

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Yea it was from a station where you can get tickets before but no one ever mentioned I should get ticket before when I’ve brought ticket on train before. Also I think I’ve traveled on train before with a off peak ticket in peak time not deliberately as I’m not even sure off peak times in day but have got train at most times in afternoon and none have ever said anything about it being off peak ticket.

Kmo86 said:

Yea it was from a station where you can get tickets before but no one ever mentioned I should get ticket before when I’ve brought ticket on train before.

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This makes it perhaps understandable on a 'moral' level that this is what you have done, but now you know the rules. If you had ever been caught by a Revenue Protection Inspector you could potentially have been prosecuted for failing to use available ticketing facilities, although the train companies may decide to abandon a case involving a passenger holding a Disabled Railcard for PR reasons. However, you should not rely on this, and should make use of available ticketing facilities in future.

Kmo86 said:

Also I think I’ve traveled on train before with a off peak ticket in peak time not deliberately as I’m not even sure off peak times in day but have got train at most times in afternoon and none have ever said anything about it being off peak ticket.

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If you travel with an Off-Peak ticket at a time where it isn't valid, there is no penalty for this (provided it isn't an act intended to 'dodge the fare'). You simply have to pay the difference to the cheapest valid fare, which will usually be an Anytime ticket.

Off-Peak times vary wildly across the country and depend entirely on the ticket you hold. There is no generic thing such as a train which is 'peak' or 'off-peak'. This system (which uses two-character restriction codes printed on tickets, and which can be looked up at www.nationalrail.co.uk/XX, where XX is the restriction code) is very complex, and accordingly members of staff may sometimes show discretion if they are not completely sure of the restrictions applying to a ticket. Other times they will merely want to check that you have a ticket at all rather than needing a ticket. In such cases they will not drill down into details of the restrictions applying to the ticket.

This really does exemplify the absurdity of the the way the regulations are applied. It is "illegal", in many circumstances, to wait until you are on the train to buy your ticket. But the operating company allows its employees, at their discretion, to sell these illegal tickets.
This sends a very confusing message to the traveller, especially the casual one, . It is not unreasonable, on seeing a man selling tickets on the train, to come to the conclusion that that is how tickets are sold: in the same way as a bus.

Kmo86 said:

i have been using northern trains every week for last few years. I have a disabled rail card for discount. I have around a year back learnt I can still buy a ticket at the lower rate using my rail card on the train. So I have started doing this, but yesterday the conductor was going to charge me £10.50 which is the cost with railcard before 9am or 8.30 or whenever the higher rate is. I asked why it was that much as it was normally £8.90 at that time. She then said ok she would change it to £8.90 but said the train companies were clamping down on people buying tickets on train and i wouldn’t be able to get discount on train anymore. Now if I didn’t get discount the cost would be more than £10.50 so I’m wondering if she was just trying to over charge or if she hadn’t changed the time to the later time as this was 9.05 train so the first train with lower price of the day.

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If you are unable to buy the ticket at the station, for example if the ticket office is inaccessible or closed and your disability prevents you using the ticket machine, or if the ticket machine doesn't accept your chosen payment method, then you are entitled to the appropriate fare, with discounts on the train.

If you chose to buy the ticket on board when facilities were usable and available and there was no notice or other publication inviting you to buy on board, you are not entitled to the full range of fares and are not entitled to use a railcard discount.

Kmo86 said:

I think I’ve traveled on train before with a off peak ticket in peak time not deliberately as I’m not even sure off peak times in day but have got train at most times in afternoon and none have ever said anything about it being off peak ticket.

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If you travel on a time restricted ticket at a barred time, then staff are entitled to charge you an excess fare, priced at the difference between the fare paid and the fare due (including any Railcard discounts, where applicable).

However in practice staff may not notice that a restricted ticket is held, and/or they may decide that the excess fare isn't worth it as it can be time consuming to issue one for a small amount which may reduce the time available to issue tickets to passengers who require a ticket from unstaffed stations.

The main question you should ask yourself (and it’s not important to share the information here if you don’t want) is does / could your disability prevent you from using ticketing facilities at the station. If the answer is yes (and it is not for any member of railway staff to judge or decide this) then you should be offered the full range of fares on board including the railcard discount. It would generally be considered unnecessary and unwise for a staff member to question this as not all disabilities are visible.

CanalWalker said:

This really does exemplify the absurdity of the the way the regulations are applied. It is "illegal", in many circumstances, to wait until you are on the train to buy your ticket. But the operating company allows its employees, at their discretion, to sell these illegal tickets.
This sends a very confusing message to the traveller, especially the casual one, . It is not unreasonable, on seeing a man selling tickets on the train, to come to the conclusion that that is how tickets are sold: in the same way as a bus.

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You can't board a bus or tram without (in my area) paying!

Posters are displayed at all stations (in my area) along the line of route re -You must Buy before you board or you will incur Penalty/s-


It's not unusual to see a female conductor selling tickets either, it's good will on both the Train Operator if there is issues with the ticket office operation or TVM's having a bad day.

There is a trend ongoing now for a few years that customers who do not have tickets on board when challenged give an excuse thus "I would have missed the train" if I purchased a ticket from ticket office/TVM! Now these stations are not in the middle of nowhere but along a busy commuter belt and these persons challenged believe it's ok to board and travel in this manner without seeking out the TM/Guard/Conductor.

So those of you who are under the impression that the Guard/TM/Conductor is in the back cab reading the Sun and you haven't observed them during the course of your journey he or she is more likely selling "Walk Up" fares rather than passing through the train offering travel advice and more as well as selling tickets for the following day of which In the case of the former a "Penalty Fare Warning" is applicable.

As the tickets office and TVM sales decline because of these actions one hopes that these services are not reduced.

Unfortunately we now live in an age where actions are carried out with little regard for the consequences primarily thinking I cannot get into trouble - I did not see the advice/warnings.