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Merseyrail breach franchise commitments again by shutting stations

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nedchester

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From the Merseyrail website:

https://www.merseyrail.org/plan-your-journey/sunday-2-june.aspx
Due to the size of crowds expected, some stations will be closed. These are:
  • Lime Street low level
  • James Street
  • Green Lane
  • Bromborough Rake
  • Capenhurst
In addition:
  • Northern line trains will only call at Moorfields in the city centre
  • Wirral line trains will only call at Liverpool Central in the city centre
If Liverpool FC don't win
If Liverpool are unsuccessful and there is no parade, all trains will call at Moorfields and Liverpool Central stations but all other changes will remain in place.

The closed stations will remain closed and the timetable will remain as detailed above.

No bus alternative from stations like Capenhurst
 
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Bletchleyite

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Southern are at it all the time at Preston Park when there is an event at the actual park and the stations in the Lewes area are shut bonfire night.

But isn't that at Police request? The Police are hardly going to request Capenhurst or Bromborough Rake to be closed. It's because it is for whatever reason inconvenient to serve it, e.g. it would require an extra unit/crew diagram.
 

clagmonster

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There is no mention of Overpool on that webpage!!!
Their detailed timetables show the Ellesmere Port trains as stopping at Overpool. There are less stations closed than for the giant puppet event, but it is still unacceptable. Given that the normal level of frequency is being gained, I would be interested to learn what is being gained by not serving these stations.
 

Typhoon

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But isn't that at Police request? The Police are hardly going to request Capenhurst or Bromborough Rake to be closed. It's because it is for whatever reason inconvenient to serve it, e.g. it would require an extra unit/crew diagram.
The Lewes closures certainly are. The small town (17,000) is simply overwhelmed by visitors.
 

jamesst

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But isn't that at Police request? The Police are hardly going to request Capenhurst or Bromborough Rake to be closed. It's because it is for whatever reason inconvenient to serve it, e.g. it would require an extra unit/crew diagram.

The city centre station closures will be at police request, the 3 stations on the Chester line (the only line with any closures) will be to try and keep the 3 Chester diagrams on timish... It doesn't take much for them to fall apart!!
Trying to get any extra traincrew to work on Sunday is a non starter...
 

nedchester

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The city centre station closures will be at police request, the 3 stations on the Chester line (the only line with any closures) will be to try and keep the 3 Chester diagrams on timish... It doesn't take much for them to fall apart!!
Trying to get any extra traincrew to work on Sunday is a non starter...

But no buses offered as an alternative. Breach of Franchise (again)
 

Bletchleyite

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The city centre station closures will be at police request, the 3 stations on the Chester line (the only line with any closures) will be to try and keep the 3 Chester diagrams on timish... It doesn't take much for them to fall apart!!
Trying to get any extra traincrew to work on Sunday is a non starter...

Presumably the issue is that there'll be longer boarding times at busier stations so that needs offsetting?

Looking at a map Bromborough Rake is about 1km from either Bromborough or Spital. I'm not even sure on that basis why it exists, and a bus would probably be fairly pointless. But Capenhurst? I doubt usage is high, but it is one I've used as a kid to go walking from.

At least they've left Aughton Park and Town Green alone this time.
 

jamesst

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This Exactly! Chester only has a 4minute turnaround on a Sunday so much higher crowds would pretty much throw the normal schedule out the window.
The other lines have a much healthier turnaround time hence why there's no station closures on the other lines.
The city centre station closures as mentioned earlier are the standard response to something big happening in Liverpool and are agreed with btp and all the relevant authorities.
 

Bletchleyite

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This Exactly! Chester only has a 4minute turnaround on a Sunday so much higher crowds would pretty much throw the normal schedule out the window.
The other lines have a much healthier turnaround time hence why there's no station closures on the other lines.
The city centre station closures as mentioned earlier are the standard response to something big happening in Liverpool and are agreed with btp and all the relevant authorities.

To be fair this just highlights that they really should have another diagram on the Wirral Line on a Sunday. 4 minute layovers on a run that long are not adequate; my personal view is that you need at least 10 minutes in the hour to be reliable, and of course you don't have any at the Liverpool end.

What they should probably do is provide a taxi on demand from Bromborough Rake to Bromborough and Capenhurst to Hooton, arranged with a local taxi company with the number posted at the station. Most people won't be bothered with the fuss of that but it does mean people of limited mobility won't be disadvantaged.

Same when Aughton Park isn't served - just run a taxi on demand to Ormskirk or Town Green. Most people will just walk or drive to one or the other, but you won't disadvantage older people, of whom quite a few live near Aughton Park as it's an area with a somewhat ageing population.

(Note I don't criticise the city centre stuff which is probably on Police advice).
 

joke2711

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What gets me about this is that if Liverpool don't win ... the timetable returns to normal in Liverpool yet the closures remain in place elsewhere
I do think that Merseyrail should be held more accountable to their loyal/regular customers.
It is happening far too often yet they will gloat about their successful operations if the event does go ahead.
I am still scarred from trying to get a train to Hoylake during the last open golf championships (Sunday) when they took 7 (SEVEN) consecutive services out of service at Liverpool Central and ran them back to Hoylake empty ...
 
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jamesst

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To be fair this just highlights that they really should have another diagram on the Wirral Line on a Sunday. 4 minute layovers on a run that long are not adequate; my personal view is that you need at least 10 minutes in the hour to be reliable, and of course you don't have any at the Liverpool end.

What they should probably do is provide a taxi on demand from Bromborough Rake to Bromborough and Capenhurst to Hooton, arranged with a local taxi company with the number posted at the station. Most people won't be bothered with the fuss of that but it does mean people of limited mobility won't be disadvantaged.

Same when Aughton Park isn't served - just run a taxi on demand to Ormskirk or Town Green. Most people will just walk or drive to one or the other, but you won't disadvantage older people, of whom quite a few live near Aughton Park as it's an area with a somewhat ageing population.

(Note I don't criticise the city centre stuff which is probably on Police advice).

Very much so, the whole timetable needs a recast to be utterly honest, however I think that's a few years away
 

jamesst

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What gets me about this is that if Liverpool don't win ... the timetable returns to normal in Liverpool yet the closures remain in place elsewhere
I do think that Merseyrail should be held more accountable to their loyal/regular customers.
It is happening far too often yet they will gloat about their successful operations if the event does go ahead.
I am still scarred from trying to get a train to Hoylake during the last open gold championships (Sunday) when they took 7 (SEVEN) consecutive services out of service at Liverpool Central and ran them back to Hoylake empty ...

Probably worth remembering that if no parade happens (but it will-fingers crossed!) it's only Moorfields and Liverpool Central that will return to normal operation. James St and Lime Street low level will remain closed regardless.
 

Bletchleyite

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Very much so, the whole timetable needs a recast to be utterly honest, however I think that's a few years away

It might I suppose be that the FLIRT's massively superior acceleration coupled by the 5-10 seconds per stop that DOO saves (get out, check the train is platformed, ding ding, ding ding) allow that 5 minutes to increase to 10 which might prove adequate in such a simple system.
 

Bletchleyite

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Probably worth remembering that if no parade happens (but it will-fingers crossed!) it's only Moorfields and Liverpool Central that will return to normal operation. James St and Lime Street low level will remain closed regardless.

What is the reason for this? Staff allocations?
 

RichardN

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Isn't the turnaround at Chester 4 minutes during the week too? Some diagrams miss Capenhurst out, presumably to give a bit of slack.
 

jamesst

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What is the reason for this? Staff allocations?

Must be I assume,i suppose with the result not being known until 10 ish Sat night it would be too late to change station staffing back. With traincrew and unit diagrams it's definitely too late.

Isn't the turnaround at Chester 4 minutes during the week too? Some diagrams miss Capenhurst out, presumably to give a bit of slack.

5mins during the week, purely by missing out Capenhurst.
 

Gareth

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I thought they were ending the Capenhurst skip thing. Is that when the new trains come in?
 

jamesst

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I thought they were ending the Capenhurst skip thing. Is that when the new trains come in?

No chance with the current timetable, it's a way of gaining a valuable couple of minutes.
The autumn timetable has an extra unit inserted into the Chester line which means all trains can stop at Capenhurst, this comes at the expense of the West Kirby line though which sees a 6 coach service downgraded to accommodate it.
 

Bevan Price

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They say that they hope to run 6 coach formations. Will it be possible to run "double" formations of the new Flirt trains, or would they be too long for the platforms ?
 

notlob.divad

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They say that they hope to run 6 coach formations. Will it be possible to run "double" formations of the new Flirt trains, or would they be too long for the platforms ?
This has been talked about in the rolling stock thread. In theory they have been designed to fit the platforms, by clever positioning of the doors. However, there is rumoured to be a particular problem at Central when it comes to reversing trains in the platforms there. It is not about the platform length but the sighting distance for the signals. Or so I understand it. Suggest further discussion is switched there rather than taking over this thread.

As for the main subject, these seem to be the same sensible measures that are made when ever major events front the Giants, the 3 Queens, the Grand National etc. Tried and tested allowances. At least on the Merseyrail lines they do something. The Northern rail operated lines just become chaos.

If people of Capenhurst don't like their service being cut on occasional event days, there is a simple answer, lobby their council to fully join the body that provides oversight.
 

Bletchleyite

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No chance with the current timetable, it's a way of gaining a valuable couple of minutes.
The autumn timetable has an extra unit inserted into the Chester line which means all trains can stop at Capenhurst, this comes at the expense of the West Kirby line though which sees a 6 coach service downgraded to accommodate it.

Why is this only being done in Autumn, out of interest? Is it to do with staff availability?

I assume the main reason is not to allow more stops at Capenhurst just in case the proverbial one man wants to take his dog and bicycle for a quick ride to Bache and back, but to allow the layover at Chester to be extended to something sensible and thus make the service more resilient.
 

Bletchleyite

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If people of Capenhurst don't like their service being cut on occasional event days, there is a simple answer, lobby their council to fully join the body that provides oversight.

To precisely which people of Capenhurst do you refer? There's nothing there...it's more of a destination, either for commuters to the nuclear site or people going for a walk in the rather pleasant countryside round there.

(It isn't *terribly* far from parts of Ellesmere Port but I bet they use Overpool instead)

Bromborough Rake is also getting its service pulled, though, and that is in Merseyside!
 

jamesst

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Why is this only being done in Autumn, out of interest? Is it to do with staff availability?

I assume the main reason is not to allow more stops at Capenhurst just in case the proverbial one man wants to take his dog and bicycle for a quick ride to Bache and back, but to allow the layover at Chester to be extended to something sensible and thus make the service more resilient.

Leaf fall season, the Chester line in particularly suffers very badly meaning there's literally no hope of the normal timetable being achieved. However as I said the extra unit comes at the expense of the West Kirby line, it's a bit of a no win situation
 

Vinnym

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Not sure what all the fuss is about. Merseyrail are forward planning, it is being done in the interest of passenger safety. If they sat on their hands and done nothing and chaos ensued, there would be scores of people on here and elsewhere complaining.
 

TUC

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It is ironic, given the number of calls for people to use public transport instead of driving to major events, that when the public does so the system can’t cope.
 

DarloRich

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From the Merseyrail website:

https://www.merseyrail.org/plan-your-journey/sunday-2-june.aspx


No bus alternative from stations like Capenhurst

what is the issue here? Seems like a sensible response to me.

Not sure what all the fuss is about. Merseyrail are forward planning, it is being done in the interest of passenger safety. If they sat on their hands and done nothing and chaos ensued, there would be scores of people on here and elsewhere complaining.

agreed. But then this board would collapse if people showed a proportionate response to sensible decisions!

I am still scarred from trying to get a train to Hoylake during the last open golf championships (Sunday) when they took 7 (SEVEN) consecutive services out of service at Liverpool Central and ran them back to Hoylake empty ...

the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
 
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