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North of Bedford MML timetable

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Gathursty

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I had a bit of time spare at Bedford station the other day and I was confused by how poor travelling north of here is.
A couple of weeks earlier I was at Kettering and I also noticed a gap in the morning heading North of about 90 minutes.
From what I can make out, if you use Leicester or stations to the North, you have more of a regular service to and from London, but south of here, it can be extremely hit and miss (ignoring Thameslink services).

I live on the WCML so I typically enjoy 2 trains North and South every hour, more in the peaks.
Why is there a problem with Kettering and Bedford which are both as major a station as Wigan North Western, if not more?
 
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Bald Rick

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If you were there this week, there is major engineering work at Market Harborough, and significant timetable amendments.

All the stations between Bedford and Leicester get 2tph in the standard hour. The pattern is an hourly service calling Bedford, Wellingboro’, Kettering, Market Haroboro’ Leicester (and then to Nottingham, the ‘Nottingham Slow’); an hourly Corby service calling Bedford, Wellingboro’, Kettering and thence to Corby, and an hour fast St Pancras to Market Harborough, then Leicester (and then to Nottingham, the ‘Nottingham Fast’)

Personally I think it’s a good service, balances connectivity with the need for good journey times to Leicester, Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield.

There are some issues with peak direction services due to the interaction with Thameslink; some of these have been resolved in the new timetable that started 2 weeks ago, others will take a little longer to sort. They principally affect passengers to and from Bedford and Luton, plus extended journey times on many trains.
 

DarloRich

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Personally I think it’s a good service, balances connectivity with the need for good journey times to Leicester, Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield.

I agree - however the good people of Bedford are far form happy! Mind you If i lived in Bedford i would be annoyed I couldn't leave quickly ;)
 

Nick Nation

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Indeed, there are still two off peak services from Kettering and Wellingborough southwards - but at approx. 00 and 50 at the moment! Not much better going from St P. The Corby train sits there for 45 revenue losing minutes - I'm all for a bit of recovery time in the turn round, but this is a waste of rolling stock resource.
 

VT 390

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If you were there this week, there is major engineering work at Market Harborough, and significant timetable amendments.

All the stations between Bedford and Leicester get 2tph in the standard hour. The pattern is an hourly service calling Bedford, Wellingboro’, Kettering, Market Haroboro’ Leicester (and then to Nottingham, the ‘Nottingham Slow’); an hourly Corby service calling Bedford, Wellingboro’, Kettering and thence to Corby, and an hour fast St Pancras to Market Harborough, then Leicester (and then to Nottingham, the ‘Nottingham Fast’)

Personally I think it’s a good service, balances connectivity with the need for good journey times to Leicester, Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield.

There are some issues with peak direction services due to the interaction with Thameslink; some of these have been resolved in the new timetable that started 2 weeks ago, others will take a little longer to sort. They principally affect passengers to and from Bedford and Luton, plus extended journey times on many trains.

But there is only really 1tph for Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough and Kettering that can be used to get anywhere north of Kettering as the Corby service is only good for going to Corby. So the only useful service for passengers going north is the Nottingham one.
 

edwin_m

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Not much better going from St P. The Corby train sits there for 45 revenue losing minutes - I'm all for a bit of recovery time in the turn round, but this is a waste of rolling stock resource.
Corby electrification will introduce a 30min interval service in a couple of years time, which should reduce the turnaround times and provide a regular interval at Wellingborough and Kettering and a faster and more comfortable alternative to Thameslink at wherever it calls between Bedford and London.
But there is only really 1tph for Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough and Kettering that can be used to get anywhere north of Kettering as the Corby service is only good for going to Corby. So the only useful service for passengers going north is the Nottingham one.
There is only 1TPH for passengers between those stations and beyond Kettering. No passenger numbers are available but I'm sure London would be the most important destination by a large margin. As recently discussed on the Abellio EMR topic, I think it's likely that the slower Nottingham train will call at Luton Airport Parkway then Kettering after electrification, with the few passengers between Bedford and beyond Kettering having to change there and use the Corby service.
 

VT 390

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There is only 1TPH for passengers between those stations and beyond Kettering. No passenger numbers are available but I'm sure London would be the most important destination by a large margin. As recently discussed on the Abellio EMR topic, I think it's likely that the slower Nottingham train will call at Luton Airport Parkway then Kettering after electrification, with the few passengers between Bedford and beyond Kettering having to change there and use the Corby service.

I completely agree that far more passengers will be going to London than north however whenever I have used the slow Nottingham service quite a few passengers get on at stations Bedford, Wellingborough and Kettering.
Even with 2tph Corby to London I think that Bedford should at least be served on the Nottingham train otherwise it goes from 1tph direct to Leicester/north to 0tph. I just hope that the connections at Kettering are kept to a minimum of just a few minutes.
 

cle

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I think just 4tph north of Bedford is quite pitiful in terms of overall service, especially given all the quadding (and wires for quicker journeys) currently happening. You'd hope for another path at least, or two - out of London. And then the secondary stations might still retain services to the East Midlands - retaining fast services too.

Had always hoped that a Manchester train might be worthwhile, slower than WCML but some competitionn as per Chiltern - plus a lot of new journey pairs (Luton/Bedford/Leicester/Derby to Stockport and Manc) - might fill the train up.
 

VT 390

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I think just 4tph north of Bedford is quite pitiful in terms of overall service, especially given all the quadding (and wires for quicker journeys) currently happening. You'd hope for another path at least, or two - out of London. And then the secondary stations might still retain services to the East Midlands - retaining fast services too.

Had always hoped that a Manchester train might be worthwhile, slower than WCML but some competitionn as per Chiltern - plus a lot of new journey pairs (Luton/Bedford/Leicester/Derby to Stockport and Manc) - might fill the train up.
There will be 6tph north of Bedford once Corby services go electric but this will mean going north of Kettering will harder from places like Bedford.

I have also thought that a Manchester service would be good, avoiding Sheffield. This service could run as an extra service and call at Bedford, Wellingborough and Kettering. But I doubt this will ever happen.
 

70014IronDuke

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There will be 6tph north of Bedford once Corby services go electric but this will mean going north of Kettering will harder from places like Bedford.

I forget if it is speculation on other threads, or if it has been decided that Bedford and Wellingboro will only be served by the Corbies. (Except, perhaps, early morning and late evenings.)

But if it turns out that way, it will be a real disincentive to travel by train, especially from Wellingboro - you will have to sit in a Corby for 5 minutes, then get up (and change platforms?) to continue to M Harboro etc. A reet pain fundamentally.

I have also thought that a Manchester service would be good, avoiding Sheffield. This service could run as an extra service and call at Bedford, Wellingborough and Kettering. But I doubt this will ever happen.

I think we've been through this one more than threads hoping to restore the Waverley route in its entirety. Don't Virgin West Coast have a non-competition clause London-Manchester in the contract with DfT? Something like that.


 

VT 390

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I think we've been through this one more than threads hoping to restore the Waverley route in its entirety. Don't Virgin West Coast have a non-competition clause London-Manchester in the contract with DfT? Something like that.

It would not really be in competition with Virgin Trains if through fares from London St Pancras to Manchester were made to be never cheaper than Virgin's cheapest advanced fares, especially as the journey would be quite a bit longer if it was a new service calling at quite a few Midland Mainline stations. But it would improve links from places like Derby, Loughborough and Leicester to Manchester and North West England and even though it may still be quicker to travel via London for Bedford and possible Kettering the fact you would not have to change would make a direct Manchester service more attractive to use.
 

swt_passenger

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Don't Virgin West Coast have a non-competition clause London-Manchester in the contract with DfT? Something like that.
DfT’s WCML moderation of competition rules in support of the main franchisee ended about 2012. Try and keep up please... :)
 
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Jorge Da Silva

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Surely a Leeds Service would be beneficial. Leeds to Leicester (and London St Pancras) would be easy to do. Abellio have said they are open to exploring more services to Leeds (read Modern Railways latest issue p.8).
 

VT 390

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Surely a Leeds Service would be beneficial. Leeds to Leicester (and London St Pancras) would be easy to do. Abellio have said they are open to exploring more services to Leeds (read Modern Railways latest issue p.8).
This could be done by extending a Sheffield service and I think it should be looked at having it replace a Northern service via Barnsley, I know this would increase the overall journey time however most passengers would still like the through service and Barnsley would get better services as well.
 

70014IronDuke

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DfT’s WCML moderation of competition rules in support of the main franchisee ended about 2012. Try and keep up please... :)

Oh ... sorry! In that case, I suppose there would be nothing stopping EMT trying it - except a) it would probably lose money and b) it would probably not get a path through the Hope Valley.
 

Aictos

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This could be done by extending a Sheffield service and I think it should be looked at having it replace a Northern service via Barnsley, I know this would increase the overall journey time however most passengers would still like the through service and Barnsley would get better services as well.

Indeed 1tph could continue onto Leeds but that brings another problem is that capacity at Leeds is a real issue as been discussed on RUK and is still ongoing.

I would like to see Class 800 bi modes in use using OHL to Corby/Market Harborough then diesel to continue via Leicester in much the same way SouthEastern operate their HS2 rounders in Kent.
 

swt_passenger

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Oh ... sorry! In that case, I suppose there would be nothing stopping EMT trying it - except a) it would probably lose money and b) it would probably not get a path through the Hope Valley.
It’s been quite a while since it (M of C) was regularly discussed. But such a service would still have to pass the usual “not primarily abstractive” tests... I guess it would take significantly longer than the WCML, which would help its “not abstractive” case.

But just like Leeds (as in earlier posts) it isn’t likely to ever be a franchise requirement. I think people continually ignore this, in respect to Leeds.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Oh ... sorry! In that case, I suppose there would be nothing stopping EMT trying it - except a) it would probably lose money and b) it would probably not get a path through the Hope Valley.
The Hope Valley is already at capacity due to the outdated signalling used and the incompatible mix of train types used (expresses, stoppers, freight) on a lengthy two-track railway with few passing loops.

The Hope Valley Capacity Scheme is to add capacity for some new services but frankly I think the market for Derby to Manchester services is going to be far smaller than that of the services which the Scheme is intended to enable.
 

43096

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Oh ... sorry! In that case, I suppose there would be nothing stopping EMT trying it - except a) it would probably lose money and b) it would probably not get a path through the Hope Valley.
Project Rio effectively tried this back in 2003/4 using HST sets and the loadings north of Leicester were never much (unless West Coast mole works were on - which was why they were run). There clearly wasn’t enough business to justify keeping running it.

There is something of an obsession on here with running direct trains from everywhere to everywhere. More realistically that is not going to happen, especially when there is already a Nottingham-Manchester service which the other East Midland stations connect into at Nottingham or Chesterfield.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Oh ... sorry! In that case, I suppose there would be nothing stopping EMT trying it - except a) it would probably lose money and b) it would probably not get a path through the Hope Valley.

I have mentioned this before - but when "Project Rio" was running , a careful check was made on "intermediate" traffic to Manchester , excluding the core "London - Manchester" , - whislt accepting it was not really marketed, some people cottoned on to it , but it was around £500K a year or so , - not really enough to make a stand alone service viable.
 

Haywain

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But there is only really 1tph for Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough and Kettering that can be used to get anywhere north of Kettering
And that calls at Luton Airport Parkway, not Luton, which is not brilliant for the majority of the town. While it is correct to say that the majority of the traffic will be heading to London, EMT seem determined to ignore the traffic potential from a conurbation of over a quarter of a million people - even to the extent of not offering Advance tickets (much, if at all).
 

ChiefPlanner

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And that calls at Luton Airport Parkway, not Luton, which is not brilliant for the majority of the town. While it is correct to say that the majority of the traffic will be heading to London, EMT seem determined to ignore the traffic potential from a conurbation of over a quarter of a million people - even to the extent of not offering Advance tickets (much, if at all).

The slow Nottingham which call at LAP seems to do very decent business (about 40 boarded the 1028 north this am) , and to be fair both parking and access to LAP seem very good , relatively uncongested and a decent planned service from Luton Town via GTR. We have discussed before a non - penalty doubling back between the 2 stations would be useful for those having business or whatever in the main center of Luton.

I took an hours stroll around Luton and the Arndale a few weeks ago - the first for many years - despite living down the track at SAC , and I have to say it has improved a lot from what it was.
 

VT 390

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And that calls at Luton Airport Parkway, not Luton, which is not brilliant for the majority of the town. While it is correct to say that the majority of the traffic will be heading to London, EMT seem determined to ignore the traffic potential from a conurbation of over a quarter of a million people - even to the extent of not offering Advance tickets (much, if at all).
Is there anything switching the Luton Airport Parkway calls to the Corby services and the Luton ones to the Nottingham ones, or even EMT not serving Airport at all. I know the Airport would loose it's direct links to the East Midlands but frequent Thameslink connections operate and you have to change anyway to get to the actual Airport.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Is there anything switching the Luton Airport Parkway calls to the Corby services and the Luton ones to the Nottingham ones, or even EMT not serving Airport at all. I know the Airport would loose it's direct links to the East Midlands but frequent Thameslink connections operate and you have to change anyway to get to the actual Airport.

I was able to comment on the DfT consultation for what became the EMT franchise way back (when I worked for ATOC on rail planning) , and the original idea from them was to serve LAP only on the planned direct Corby service. They agreed on putting the standard calls on the slow Nottingham , and I think it was the right decision. Seems well enough used. I would not change that. A change at Luton Town and then the bus to the airport is an ordeal too far. Though the new people mover to the airport will certainly be welcome.

Another idea , if you will humour me , is the fast train that gives dual benefits of a twice an hour call to Leicester from Market Harborough and a valued fast service to / from London from said place , might be further improved by a call at Bedford (off peak) - giving the desired northbound connectivity from GTR land ?
 

VT 390

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Another idea , if you will humour me , is the fast train that gives dual benefits of a twice an hour call to Leicester from Market Harborough and a valued fast service to / from London from said place , might be further improved by a call at Bedford (off peak) - giving the desired northbound connectivity from GTR land ?
Do you mean adding a Bedford call to the second Nottingham train? If so I actually think it is a good idea, although I would consider having that Nottingham train run non stop to Leicester with a Sheffield one calling at Bedford and Market Harborough as this would provide both Nottingham and Sheffield with fast London services and Bedford and others with direct services to both Nottingham and Sheffield.
 

VT 390

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Indeed 1tph could continue onto Leeds but that brings another problem is that capacity at Leeds is a real issue as been discussed on RUK and is still ongoing.
But in my suggestion I said that it could replace one of the Northern services via Barnsley so could just use that services space at Leeds as well as providing more capacity on that service and freeing up some DMU's. I know the Midland Main line timetable would have to completely change for this but with electrics coming to Corby it will need to change anyway.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Do you mean adding a Bedford call to the second Nottingham train? If so I actually think it is a good idea, although I would consider having that Nottingham train run non stop to Leicester with a Sheffield one calling at Bedford and Market Harborough as this would provide both Nottingham and Sheffield with fast London services and Bedford and others with direct services to both Nottingham and Sheffield.

I bow and approve to your suggestion. Experts I am sure could comment on the feasibilty of a little tinker to the timetable , but with the extra trackage going in , and high performance new units these issues should balance out , give a better service and improve custom and revenue. (a couple of mins on a Corby service should balance , if need be, the "main line" pattern)
 

cle

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Ahh yes I did mean 4tph north of Kettering as pitiful, was excluding the Corbys.

Re: Project Rio - times change. Derby and Leicester are both big cities, a service would be marketed and permanent (we have decent and mobile internet now, plus Google maps etc) - I'd think direct services to Manchester would be more useful than many existing ones. Many services which weren't viable 10-20 years ago are booming now. Why not try?

I think a fast Leeds service (extending to fastest Sheffield) would be useful too. Some XC relief, some competition - plus Leicester to Leeds as a new pair. And that isn't even an extra path - but the Manchester path would help the intermediate stations too.

More calls at Luton and Bedford would definitely be useful too. Stevenage seems to have retained and boosted its calls, unlike those and of course poor Watford Junction.
 

edwin_m

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Another idea , if you will humour me , is the fast train that gives dual benefits of a twice an hour call to Leicester from Market Harborough and a valued fast service to / from London from said place , might be further improved by a call at Bedford (off peak) - giving the desired northbound connectivity from GTR land ?

No no no no no! (sorry)

This is supposed to be the fast train to Nottingham, which already loses out on London timings because the MML is slower than the ECML and the WCML, both the fast MML trains go via Derby and the Nottingham service has the lower-performance HSTs. It doesn't even benefit from the Market Harborough realignment! Bedford calls in the Up direction involve a switch to the Slow lines and back and are prone to problems if Thameslink is having a conniption and blocking all three Up side platforms, so are a source of unreliability as well as extended journey time.

So I'd say continue to stop the slower Nottingham at Luton Airport Parkway, perhaps a Sheffield too and the Corbies, providing the Stevenage equivalent with the bonus of airport traffic. The relatively few people who travel between Bedford and north of Kettering may have to change there. It's likely a future timetable would have the semi-fast leaving St Pancras about 18min behind the Corby, so should be about right for a good connection at Kettering (and similarly southbound).
 

Bald Rick

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I have mentioned this before - but when "Project Rio" was running , a careful check was made on "intermediate" traffic to Manchester , excluding the core "London - Manchester" , - whislt accepting it was not really marketed, some people cottoned on to it , but it was around £500K a year or so , - not really enough to make a stand alone service viable.

Barely enough to cover the crew cost, let alone fuel, rolling stock, etc etc.

Do you mean adding a Bedford call to the second Nottingham train? If so I actually think it is a good idea, although I would consider having that Nottingham train run non stop to Leicester with a Sheffield one calling at Bedford and Market Harborough as this would provide both Nottingham and Sheffield with fast London services and Bedford and others with direct services to both Nottingham and Sheffield.

The fast Nottingham follows the ‘slower’ Sheffield which is non-stop to Leicester. That means if you make the fast Nottingham faster, it would be hard on the heels of the slow Sheffield, and thus the latter couldn’t stop anywhere south of Leicester*. Therefore it would have to be the fast Sheffield that made the extra calls. This has two consequences: the journey time would go above the headline 2 hours, and Market Harboros punters from London would have their 2tph at 3/57 min gaps.

* of course they could be swapped round. But then we are into issues at Nottingham, Derby, Sheffield, etc etc.

I took an hours stroll around Luton and the Arndale a few weeks ago - the first for many years - despite living down the track at SAC , and I have to say it has improved a lot from what it was.

I’m glad you made it back alive, Guv’.
 
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