Northern Delay Repay - What constitutes time of arrival?

Norb · 30 May 2019

I travelled on 20/05/2019 from Chorley to Manchester Victoria on the 16:19 due to arrive 17:00
While waiting for what seemed an age at a stop signal just outside the station I decided to check realtimetrains.co.uk, it turned 17:14 and we started to move. Almost immediately realtimetrains reported that the train had arrived Victoria at 17:14, but we were still outside the train shed. It had turned 17:15 by the time the train had come to a halt at the platform, and the doors had started to open (of which I had photographic proof).

So what constitutes the time of arrival?
Northern stated that it arrived at 17:14, so I tapped on the appeal link to explain the above, but the reply was "16.19 service arrived @17.14, 14 minuets late" [sic]
Is it worth me making the "formal complaint" emailing Customer relations, or give it up as a bad job?

RailUK Forums

_toommm_ · 30 May 2019

You could reasonably say that the time of arrival, for a passenger, is when the passenger steps onto the platform.

RealTimeTrains and other sources uses the time it passes into the signal block for the platform, plus an allowance for the time for it to get into the platform.

I've successfully argued with TPE about this, as they claimed it was 29 minutes, but due to the train uncoupling, it was a good 32/33 minutes before the doors opened. Do try and fight it, or if not, go to the Rail Ombudsman, or you could go to a Letter Before Action (LBA) - I'm sure others will be along to explain that side of it as I'm not too sure on it.

ForTheLoveOf · 30 May 2019

Norb said:
I travelled on 20/05/2019 from Chorley to Manchester Victoria on the 16:19 due to arrive 17:00
While waiting for what seemed an age at a stop signal just outside the station I decided to check realtimetrains.co.uk, it turned 17:14 and we started to move. Almost immediately realtimetrains reported that the train had arrived Victoria at 17:14, but we were still outside the train shed. It had turned 17:15 by the time the train had come to a halt at the platform, and the doors had started to open (of which I had photographic proof).

So what constitutes the time of arrival?
Northern stated that it arrived at 17:14, so I tapped on the appeal link to explain the above, but the reply was "16.19 service arrived @17.14, 14 minuets late" [sic]
Is it worth me making the "formal complaint" emailing Customer relations, or give it up as a bad job?

Provide them with the photographic proof you have. It's very good that you have this as otherwise they might try and claim their data is all-knowing, when it's absolutely not!

The time of arrival is the time the doors are released. The time the train is in the region of the station, at the signal outside, is in the signal berth for the platform, or even stops at the platform, are all total irrelevances. The time the doors are released is all that is relevant.

Norb · 30 May 2019

I sent this:

With respect to the above delay repay appeal, I am given to understand that the time of arrival for the purposes of delay repay is the time that the doors were released, as can be seen from the properties of the attached photograph the doors were in the process of opening at 17:15, and so I am disputing your quoted time of arrival (17:14) as per the rejection. I trust that this matter will be resolved quickly.

Best regards

Xxxxx Xxxxxxxx

I'll let you know how it goes...

AlterEgo · 31 May 2019

Forgive my impertinence but what does that photo prove?

_toommm_ · 31 May 2019

AlterEgo said:
Forgive my impertinence but what does that photo prove?

The photo will have details associated with it, and one of those will be the time and date took, along with other stuff such as location, photo size etc.

AlterEgo · 31 May 2019

_toommm_ said:
The photo will have details associated with it, and one of those will be the time and date took, along with other stuff such as location, photo size etc.

Does the phone run on railway time?

_toommm_ · 31 May 2019

AlterEgo said:
Does the phone run on railway time?

The phone should run on the internationally synced time, so should be near as makes no difference, accurate.

But then again, some railway clocks still say it's 11pm at 7 in the morning.

talldave · 31 May 2019

And we all know how to edit jpeg metadata!

Perhaps the best evidence is a video of doors opening that then shows the platform clock?

ForTheLoveOf · 31 May 2019

talldave said:
And we all know how to edit jpeg metadata!

Perhaps the best evidence is a video of doors opening that then shows the platform clock?

If Northern are going to claim that the OP has fraudulently edited jpeg metadata then they will need something more than the mere allegation to make it believable. It's no more believable than claiming Northern have deliberately lied about what their data says about the opening of the train doors (data which they interpolate and don't actually record).

Norb · 31 May 2019

talldave said:
Perhaps the best evidence is a video of doors opening that then shows the platform clock?

I'll remember that for next time...

Haywain · 31 May 2019

talldave said:
And we all know how to edit jpeg metadata!

Actually, no we don't all know how to do that.

ForTheLoveOf said:
If Northern are going to claim that the OP has fraudulently edited jpeg metadata

That's rather overdramatic, isn't it. They haven't even responded at this stage, but it is more likely that they will either agree to meet the claim or state that they don't agree. I expect they are using the data that their franchise agreement requires them to use for the purpose.

paddington · 31 May 2019

_toommm_ said:
The phone should run on the internationally synced time, so should be near as makes no difference, accurate.

I have some doubts that Northern's CS staff will even know how to read the jpg metadata?

While some people might not know how to edit metadata, most people would know how to change the time on their phone. I'm not sure how one could prove their phone was set to sync to an accurate timeserver.

Norb · 31 May 2019

I ‘m not sure that it’s worth falsifying stuff for the £1.88 I would receive if they pay up, it’s the principle of the thing where they are denying that the train was 15 minutes late. That’s why I am pursuing it.

najaB · 31 May 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
If Northern are going to claim that the OP has fraudulently edited jpeg metadata then they will need something more than the mere allegation to make it believable.

There doesn't need to be any accusation of deliberate fraud. If I was to take a photo today with my DSLR it would appear to have been taken on January 1st, 2007.

The only thing that EXIF data proves is the time set on the device's realtime clock.

ForTheLoveOf · 31 May 2019

najaB said:
There doesn't need to be any accusation of deliberate fraud. If I was to take a photo today with my DSLR it would appear to have been taken on January 1st, 2007.

The only thing that EXIF data proves is the time set on the device's realtime clock.

Right, so you are suggesting they will claim that the OP has been running their phone's clock out of sync, despite automatic network-based sync being the default option on every phone.

If Northern cause any issues with the claim after the image is sent to them, I suspect the trustworthiness or reliability of the image will not be the primary issue.

najaB · 31 May 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
Right, so you are suggesting they will claim that the OP has been running their phone's clock out of sync, despite automatic network-based sync being the default option on every phone.

No. I'm saying that EXIF data is only proof of what time the device's realtime click is set to.

Much as people say "I can prove where I was, here's my GPS history." That only proves where the phone thought it was.

robbeech · 1 Jun 2019

This reminds me of the important saying A photograph of a man walking backwards is not sufficient proof.

100andthirty · 1 Jun 2019

If they're awkward, try something like this. "The reported time of arrival is based on the time that the train occupied the signalling block for the platform berth, plus an allowance for the time to get from the start of the block into the platform. The time to get from the start of the block varied depending on whether the train runs straight in or is held at a signal outside the station. It takes longer to get into the platform from a standing start. This explains why my (ie the OP's) time is later than the system recorded."

Personally, I find it incredible that they wast so much time quibbling over trivial amounts unless, of course they have evidence of multiple marginal claims. However, I suspect the people handling the claims have no idea about the limitations of the reporting system.

talldave · 1 Jun 2019

najaB said:
No. I'm saying that EXIF data is only proof of what time the device's realtime click is set to.

Much as people say "I can prove where I was, here's my GPS history." That only proves where the phone thought it was.

EXIF data is only proof of what someone last edited the EXIF data to be. Effectively, it's useless.

aye2beeviasea · 1 Jun 2019

Anyone knows that you can't wear double denim until after 17:15

najaB · 1 Jun 2019

talldave said:
EXIF data is only proof of what someone last edited the EXIF data to be. Effectively, it's useless.

True, though I was speaking in reference to the suggestion that the metadata could only be inaccurate if the OP had "fraudulently altered jpeg metadata".

Northern Delay Repay - What constitutes time of arrival?

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