Tyne & Wear Metro: Fleet Refurbishment List

Tetchytyke · 28 May 2019

30-minute gaps on the coast and airport lines tonight because of- you guessed it- a shortage of drivers.

Makes you wonder what Teflon Hughes would actually have to do to get sacked.

jkkne said:
When people enquired about taxis Metro replied...you’ll get a refund of your ticket before announcing they couldn’t possibly answer any individual tweets because it’s busy.

That only works if the service is delivered with reasonable skill and care.

It's been a bloody long time since we could say that about Metro. I didn't think they could be worse than DB Regio but goodness me they are.

RailUK Forums

cosmo · 29 May 2019

On a completely unrelated note, I wonder why car 4073 never got the new announcements installed. Maybe it's a contractual thing that they have to use the old ones for x years?

Paul_10 · 30 May 2019

cosmo said:
On a completely unrelated note, I wonder why car 4073 never got the new announcements installed. Maybe it's a contractual thing that they have to use the old ones for x years?

4019 and 4081 also have the female announcements but I think it's just down to not realising or not too bothered about replacing them. Makes no real difference to the passenger really.

cosmo · 30 May 2019

Paul_10 said:
4019 and 4081 also have the female announcements but I think it's just down to not realising or not too bothered about replacing them. Makes no real difference to the passenger really.

Entirely correct, it doesn't make much difference to the average passenger. Just brings back memories of years gone by for me though

DanNCL · 31 May 2019

I'm trying to compile a list of which units are out of service currently, this is the list I've got so far, if anyone could add to this that'd be great

4019
4021? (Assumption based on the fact I've not seen it for several months)
4022
4032? (Assumption based on the fact I've not seen it for several months)
4040
4075

I know 4022 is still down in Bristol - is it still getting repaired, or is it likely just to head for scrap?
Also, does anyone know what condition the other units that aren't currently operational are in, and if/when they are likely to return to service?

MetroCar4058 · 31 May 2019

DanNCL said:
I'm trying to compile a list of which units are out of service currently, this is the list I've got so far, if anyone could add to this that'd be great
4019
4021? (Assumption based on the fact I've not seen it for several months)
4022
4032? (Assumption based on the fact I've not seen it for several months)
4040
4075

I know 4022 is still down in Bristol - is it still getting repaired, or is it likely just to head for scrap?
Also, does anyone know what condition the other units that aren't currently operational are in, and if/when they are likely to return to service?

4022 is scrapped. 2 (not sure of the units numbers) are long term out of service due to an incident.

Paul_10 · 31 May 2019

MetroCar4058 said:
4022 is scrapped. 2 (not sure of the units numbers) are long term out of service due to an incident.

Is that definitely confirmed now? And what incident would that be? Sounds serious?

I read via a member on the Tyne and wear metro photo group who seems to be a driver is claiming 4075 is being used for spare parts or essentially a 'Christmas tree' so might not return to service again.

4002 will not be in service at the moment although I never seen 4001+4083 in service during my time up in Tyneside last week either. Just seems as per usual there is just too many metrocars out of service sadly.

MetroCar4058 · 31 May 2019

Paul_10 said:
Is that definitely confirmed now? And what incident would that be? Sounds serious?

I read via a member on the Tyne and wear metro photo group who seems to be a driver is claiming 4075 is being used for spare parts or essentially a 'Christmas tree' so might not return to service again.

4002 will not be in service at the moment although I never seen 4001+4083 in service during my time up in Tyneside last week either. Just seems as per usual there is just too many metrocars out of service sadly.

Nothing serious, they just need to be repaired and they’re larger jobs.

DanNCL · 31 May 2019

MetroCar4058 said:
4022 is scrapped. 2 (not sure of the units numbers) are long term out of service due to an incident.

I'd been reliably informed that it was still in Bristol two weeks ago, so unless it's been scrapped within the last two weeks it's still dumped at Barton Hill.

Paul_10 said:
I read via a member on the Tyne and wear metro photo group who seems to be a driver is claiming 4075 is being used for spare parts or essentially a 'Christmas tree' so might not return to service again.

Wouldn't surprise me if the same was also the case with 4019. It does strike me as a bit odd however that if 4022 is only fit for scrap why they haven't used that as a spare parts source instead.

Paul_10 said:
4002 will not be in service at the moment although I never seen 4001+4083 in service during my time up in Tyneside last week either. Just seems as per usual there is just too many metrocars out of service sadly.

It's been paired with both 4001 and with 4083 in service earlier this year so it does still appear occasionally, but it does tend to see much less use than 4001 and 4083.

MetroCar4058 · 31 May 2019

DanNCL said:
I'd been reliably informed that it was still in Bristol two weeks ago, so unless it's been scrapped within the last two weeks it's still dumped at Barton Hill.

As far as I’m aware the consensus is that it’s time is over and it will not be returning to Metro. But ‘officially’ it hasn’t been scrapped nor moved for the axe yet.

Sorry, I didn’t make it clear & it could’ve sounded like I meant it was tin cans already!

Tramfan · 31 May 2019

4019's been parked up with it's pantograph raised at the west end of the Depot when I've gone past on the train over the last couple of weeks

Scott M · 1 Jun 2019

Arctic Troll said:
30-minute gaps on the coast and airport lines tonight because of- you guessed it- a shortage of drivers.

Makes you wonder what Teflon Hughes would actually have to do to get sacked.

Out of curiosity, why is there a shortage of drivers - as I believe it is a highly coveted job and so they will have no shortage of applicants?

If it is a case of only being able to train a certain amount at any one time, why is that Hughes' fault - is it because he is failing to provide sufficient resources to allow them to have higher intakes of trainees?

Tetchytyke · 1 Jun 2019

Scott M said:
Out of curiosity, why is there a shortage of drivers - as I believe it is a highly coveted job and so they will have no shortage of applicants?

Industrial relations are terrible. They can't keep drivers and, of those who remain, many refuse to work overtime.

It is exactly Hughes' fault. Training is a smokescreen; these staffing issues go back to early 2018, if not before.

Tetchytyke · 1 Jun 2019

30 minute gaps in service again tonight.

trebor79 · 1 Jun 2019

Crikey. When I lived in the north east 20 years ago, Metro was an excellent and efficient service with almost tube frequency in the middle of town.
Seems to have gone down the pan somewhat since then. What a shame.

MetroCar4058 · 2 Jun 2019

Arctic Troll said:
Industrial relations are terrible. They can't keep drivers and, of those who remain, many refuse to work overtime.

It is exactly Hughes' fault. Training is a smokescreen; these staffing issues go back to early 2018, if not before.

Relations are bad yes, but the pay negotiations were won and drivers wages are going up to £45K. There is a limitation on the number of drivers who can be trained on each course of (I think) 8; this will be increased when the South Shields training centre is complete with a simulator etc.

There is a national shortage of train drivers and Metro is the lowest paying train operator; TPE have been hawking away at Metro that hasn’t helped either.

It’s not all ‘blame Hughes’, there are a wider range of players and issues involved in this.

ModernRailways · 2 Jun 2019

Scott M said:
Out of curiosity, why is there a shortage of drivers - as I believe it is a highly coveted job and so they will have no shortage of applicants?

If it is a case of only being able to train a certain amount at any one time, why is that Hughes' fault - is it because he is failing to provide sufficient resources to allow them to have higher intakes of trainees?

A lot of drivers realise how poorly they are treated and as such move on to bigger and better things as has been seen with the mass exodus to TPE. A portion of drivers have also moved over to working freight as well.

Arctic Troll said:
Industrial relations are terrible. They can't keep drivers and, of those who remain, many refuse to work overtime.

It is exactly Hughes' fault. Training is a smokescreen; these staffing issues go back to early 2018, if not before.

The vast majority now refuse to work overtime. And from what I've gathered it's the same with CS staff where a lot simply won't work overtime and is why Metro continue to employ casual CS staff even though DBTW have left the scene.

These issues I'd argue began in 2016/2017, but DB where more proactive and as such brought more drivers in before it got too bad. However, Nexus simply like to leave everything to the last minute and until the public are affected. Then they can simply say on their fancy posters that 'X number of drivers started this month'. That means nothing when you've still got loads of duties uncovered.

MetroCar4058 said:
Relations are bad yes, but the pay negotiations were won and drivers wages are going up to £45K. There is a limitation on the number of drivers who can be trained on each course of (I think) 8; this will be increased when the South Shields training centre is complete with a simulator etc.

There is a national shortage of train drivers and Metro is the lowest paying train operator; TPE have been hawking away at Metro that hasn’t helped either.

It’s not all ‘blame Hughes’, there are a wider range of players and issues involved in this.

Industrial relations are incredibly bad. Pay negotiations weren't really won, it took 2 years to sort, and there has still been no change in reciprocal travel arrangements - something Nexus claim to be trying to get.

8 drivers at most can be trained. That will not change, it will simply be instead of training taking place here in the depot it will take place in South Shields instead.

It's got nothing to do with TPE and everything to do with the fact that if you treat your staff poorly then they won't stick around and will move on when possibilities present themselves. A large portion of trainee drivers that I've met say they'll stick with Metro, but then after a year in the job they realise they need to look at moving on and as such they do so. Treat the staff well and they'll stick around even if you do pay the lowest rate.

The majority of the issues lie with Nexus management, and Tobyn is that figurehead and as such he must bare the majority of the responsibility.

MetroCar4058 · 2 Jun 2019

ModernRailways said:
8 drivers at most can be trained. That will not change, it will simply be instead of training taking place here in the depot it will take place in South Shields instead.

I've heard otherwise, there is apparently review in attempt to try and increase this.

ModernRailways said:
It's got nothing to do with TPE and everything to do with the fact that if you treat your staff poorly then they won't stick around and will move on when possibilities present themselves. A large portion of trainee drivers that I've met say they'll stick with Metro, but then after a year in the job they realise they need to look at moving on and as such they do so. Treat the staff well and they'll stick around even if you do pay the lowest rate.

As I've said, I accept these points and agree, but there is a wider context to everyone leaving!

ModernRailways said:
The vast majority now refuse to work overtime. And from what I've gathered it's the same with CS staff where a lot simply won't work overtime and is why Metro continue to employ casual CS staff even though DBTW have left the scene.

You shouldn't rely on staff for overtime, which is what happens at Metro. Regarding casual staff, they haven't taken any casual staff on for gateline duties for a long time and there aren't plans to do this as far as I know. If I'm honest some are better than the full time staff from what I've heard.

ModernRailways said:
reciprocal travel arrangements

Never

ModernRailways · 2 Jun 2019

MetroCar4058 said:
As I've said, I accept these points and agree, but there is a wider context to everyone leaving!

You shouldn't rely on staff for overtime, which is what happens at Metro.

Regarding casual staff, they haven't taken any casual staff on for gateline duties for a long time and there aren't plans to do this as far as I know. If I'm honest some are better than the full time staff from what I've heard.

And what is that wider context? It is quite simply poor pay, and poor treatment/working conditions.

Relying on overtime isn't a problem, until you give it a reason to become a problem. A significant amount of drivers would work overtime if they were treat properly, people are willing to muck in and help when it's needed but that only happens when it's noticed and isn't forgotten.

There was an intake of casuals recently wasn't there? I certainly remember seeing a poster for it. So are they now no longer working gatelines, if so why not and what do they do? How can casuals be 'better' when they have less/no responsibility? I always thought the CS staff stuck together but I'm guessing that's not true from how you've worded that?

Paul_10 · 2 Jun 2019

Im gathering its not just money that is an issue here. I like to know more regarding "working conditions" and how they are seemingly bad, is it managment or actually when they are out on the system due to unreliable stock and (many) nuisence passengers etc.

I just get the feeling that whoever has been in charge it probably wont make much difference. the system gone downhill since DB took over and hit that really low point a few years back which started the sort out the metro page, even though reliability does seem to somewhat improve somewhat, there always seem to be an issue, sad really.

MetroCar4058 · 2 Jun 2019

ModernRailways said:
And what is that wider context? It is quite simply poor pay, and poor treatment/working conditions.

Relying on overtime isn't a problem, until you give it a reason to become a problem. A significant amount of drivers would work overtime if they were treat properly, people are willing to muck in and help when it's needed but that only happens when it's noticed and isn't forgotten.

There was an intake of casuals recently wasn't there? I certainly remember seeing a poster for it. So are they now no longer working gatelines, if so why not and what do they do? How can casuals be 'better' when they have less/no responsibility? I always thought the CS staff stuck together but I'm guessing that's not true from how you've worded that?

Wider context being better pay and conditions elsewhere and a shortage of train drivers at bases near us.

I disagree regarding relying as heavily on overtime as it has been at Metro. There are jobs there and they should be filled!

All these new casuals are only there for bus replacement duties, often working with full time members of staff anyhow. There are only a few, I think 2-3 who do gates now and they’ve all been there for at least a year, competencies exclude PFN/byelaw matters but include sub surface fire regulations. The point I’m making here is that calling them out as different or an issue isn’t particularly fair, instead they should be judged like any other CSA. All of those working full CS duties are pretty tight knit, including the casual staff, but a huge proportion of the CS grade are relatively new.

ModernRailways · 2 Jun 2019

Paul_10 said:
Im gathering its not just money that is an issue here. I like to know more regarding "working conditions" and how they are seemingly bad, is it managment or actually when they are out on the system due to unreliable stock and (many) nuisence passengers etc.

I just get the feeling that whoever has been in charge it probably wont make much difference. the system gone downhill since DB took over and hit that really low point a few years back which started the sort out the metro page, even though reliability does seem to somewhat improve somewhat, there always seem to be an issue, sad really.

Management is shockingly bad. It is very much a blame culture. The reliability of the stock is an issue, however most don't mind that, they do however hate the fallout of p***ed off passengers. And you then have your last point of anti-social behaviour which is on the rise, and drivers are on their own in dealing with these situations. Drivers will often have to deal with the same anti-social behaviour that people will give towards the CS staff however they have the luxury of never being alone, whereas drivers are almost always alone.

DB have nothing to do with it. The service levels decreased because Nexus were pushing for a year 2000 style service in year 2015 with stock past it's use by date. DB did exceptionally well with what they had, and that could be seen in the final months of DB when Nexus' timetable came in with less services required and as such DBs figures went sky high (hovering around 95% if I'm remembering correctly).

MetroCar4058 said:
Wider context being better pay and conditions elsewhere and a shortage of train drivers at bases near us.

I disagree regarding relying as heavily on overtime as it has been at Metro. There are jobs there and they should be filled!

All these new casuals are only there for bus replacement duties, often working with full time members of staff anyhow. There are only a few, I think 2-3 who do gates now and they’ve all been there for at least a year, competencies exclude PFN/byelaw matters but include sub surface fire regulations. All of those working full CS duties are pretty tight knit, including the casual staff, but a huge proportion of the CS grade are relatively new.

However, if Metro looked after their staff then they wouldn't be constantly leaving in such large droves. It's incredibly simple, look after your staff and they'll look after you. Yes of course some will move on the mainline but nothing like the current levels.

Filling those jobs takes time. It shouldn't be something that's left until it becomes a problem. Overtime reliance should be covering sickness, and staff leaving (whilst new staff are getting trained up). Issues that can't be planned for long term, but can be short term.

And these casuals are still paid the same? So for those of you on the CS side you now have full time CS, casual CS for gatelines, and casual CS for bus replacement all at the same grade but with different competencies? With full timers covering all of them if needed? I have noticed a lot of new faces when passing through the city centre however I was already aware the CS side is going through it's own revolving door.

MetroCar4058 · 2 Jun 2019

ModernRailways said:
blame culture

Totally agree. This is a result of very weak management at every level.

ModernRailways said:
anti-social behaviour which is on the rise, and drivers are on their own in dealing with these situations. Drivers will often have to deal with the same anti-social behaviour that people will give towards the CS staff however they have the luxury of never being alone, whereas drivers are almost always alone.

You’d be surprised how often CS staff end up being alone. Some of the abuse they’ve been getting recently has been horrific and they’re often just as 2 when on stations and things can get quite nasty.

ModernRailways said:
And these casuals are still paid the same? So for those of you on the CS side you now have full time CS, casual CS for gatelines, and casual CS for bus replacement all at the same grade but with different competencies? With full timers covering all of them if needed? I have noticed a lot of new faces when passing through the city centre however I was already aware the CS side is going through it's own revolving door.

Yes they are, something the unions wanted as a result of the job titles being the same. If they can’t staff bus replacement via overtime which is offered to full time then casual staff, they’ll pull staff off the revenue duties. The staffing situation seems to have stabilised a bit on the CS front now.

Scott M · 3 Jun 2019

Thanks for the replies all - some very good insights. £45k is quite a big pay rise from their current salary!

Can see why drivers would prefer to move somewhere like TPE - metro you have to deal with antisocial behaviour and stop every 2 minutes DOO, TPE the guard deals with the passengers and stops are much further apart and the guard operates the doors. Having said that, if I were metro I would include a clause in the contracts demanding a certain number of years service from new drivers before they are allowed to move on, as they don’t want to invest time and money into training people just to be used as a stepping stone onto the mainline.

ModernRailways said:
Management is shockingly bad. It is very much a blame culture.

By this do you mean that management haul drivers over the coals for every minor thing such as their train running a few minutes late, and so drivers are living on edge in fear of making a mistake?

jkkne · 3 Jun 2019

I know there's wider issues at play but for me as a daily commuter, it's the communication that always lets Nexus down.

I appreciate broadcasting you have staffing issues isn't ideal but it's better to set an expectation of 'we're experiencing train crew shortages and we're working hard to train new drivers and work to encourage others to support extra hours however some trains may be cancelled' as opposed to the weekly '30 minute delay due to train crew shortages'

At least then you're being open and honest and people tend to be more forgiving.

Equally, releasing a load of videos harping on about your fantastic overhead line replacement then suspending the service due to an overhead line issue (even if it's a different stretch) comes across as...naive in terms of customer comms.

Instead Nexus hide behind half truths and funding sob stories. Working in crisis comms myself I find being upfront and honest about your situation sets you right and wins you more friends. This is us, this isn't great, this is what we're going to do about it but...etc etc. I do think they've gotten better (peak train cancellation tweets/links to bus stops etc) but they can do more.

Tetchytyke · 3 Jun 2019

jkkne said:
Instead Nexus hide behind half truths and funding sob stories.

They have to, because the truth it is all their fault. The trains' reliability has been an issue ever since they extended to Sunderland with no new stock to operate the extended service, because working 25-year-old trains more intensively than ever before was such a good idea.

There's been no forethought or planning for such a long time it's got beyond a joke.

ModernRailways · 5 Jun 2019

Scott M said:
Having said that, if I were metro I would include a clause in the contracts demanding a certain number of years service from new drivers before they are allowed to move on, as they don’t want to invest time and money into training people just to be used as a stepping stone onto the mainline.

By this do you mean that management haul drivers over the coals for every minor thing such as their train running a few minutes late, and so drivers are living on edge in fear of making a mistake?

I believe with the new drivers that they just recently put out for there will be a 3 (or 4) year requirement.

Yes, minor things can see drivers getting pulled in to 'explain'. Running more than 1 minute early, and running more than 5 (possibly 3?) late. It's not so much drivers living in fear of making a mistake because it's relatively difficult to get sacked unless you do something major such as SPAD. It's more just getting 'told off' for something small and minor and it demoralises staff which in turn makes them not want to help out the company.

jkkne said:
I know there's wider issues at play but for me as a daily commuter, it's the communication that always lets Nexus down.

I appreciate broadcasting you have staffing issues isn't ideal but it's better to set an expectation of 'we're experiencing train crew shortages and we're working hard to train new drivers and work to encourage others to support extra hours however some trains may be cancelled' as opposed to the weekly '30 minute delay due to train crew shortages'

At least then you're being open and honest and people tend to be more forgiving.

Equally, releasing a load of videos harping on about your fantastic overhead line replacement then suspending the service due to an overhead line issue (even if it's a different stretch) comes across as...naive in terms of customer comms.

Instead Nexus hide behind half truths and funding sob stories. Working in crisis comms myself I find being upfront and honest about your situation sets you right and wins you more friends. This is us, this isn't great, this is what we're going to do about it but...etc etc. I do think they've gotten better (peak train cancellation tweets/links to bus stops etc) but they can do more.

Internal comms are horrific. I know the inspectors get emails about issues however those emails from what I've been told come out after they've already been told about a problem by passengers or a PA.

People won't mind them being honest, however when these issues have been simmering around for a few years now it's hard to sympathise. If it was a sudden thing then yes people would understand but it's not. The system has been in a steady decline for a number of years now and instead of being proactive, Nexus have waited for it to go wrong before trying to patch it up.

DanNCL · 6 Jun 2019

ModernRailways said:
Internal comms are horrific. I know the inspectors get emails about issues however those emails from what I've been told come out after they've already been told about a problem by passengers or a PA.

They don't always get any communication from control during disruption at all. I remember a few months ago during a service suspension (can't remember exactly when now) there was an inspector on his own at one of the stations (think it may have been Park Lane but I'm not 100% certain anymore) being given literally no info on what was going on whatsoever from control and he wasn't able to contact them either as they weren't answering the phone or sending out any emails/texts etc. In the end rather than continuing with my own journey, I stood there for nearly an hour passing him the updates from Metro's twitter page because otherwise he'd have had no idea what was going on and passengers were becoming really quite unpleasant towards him about it. The management at Nexus is solely to blame for issues such as this - if they communicated with their staff properly then they'd have given the inspector the info. As a member of the public who is not in any way affiliated with Metro other than as a passenger it isn't my job to stand there during disruption passing on disruption info to Metro staff solely because management can't be bothered to communicate with them, and it's a shame it's got to the point where myself and others now sometimes feel they need to do this.

It'll be interesting to see how Metro handle tonight's extra services to get people home from spicing up their lives at the Stadium of Light, they don't have enough drivers to provide even the normal service, never mind extras!

jkkne · 6 Jun 2019

Pre-gig wise they've done well. Few delays due to passenger loadings across Newcastle City Centre and the arguably less important (tonight at least) Shields line had a service gap but I saw a good presence of CSA's at City Centre and Pelaw.

As a result of the extras peak service this afternoon was fantastic, there were trains every few minutes (it was like the old days!)

And the infamous Mr Lewis appeared in one his videos. Whoever is advising him on PR really should be sacked. It's not that he isn't personable just the videos are bloody awful!

As I type Metro have just announced a 20 minute delay on Airport and St James bound services due to a power fault at South Gosforth...fingers crossed. One also hopes these extra late trains don't negatively impact the regular fare paying tomorrow morning (though acknowledging Nexus probably paid for the next 2 Christmas parties with tonight's takings!)

Tetchytyke · 7 Jun 2019

ModernRailways said:
Yes, minor things can see drivers getting pulled in to 'explain'. Running more than 1 minute early

To be fair, that is something drivers should get pulled in for, especially when they're leaving the city centre stations early.

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