Transport Investigation Limited

Hello

I'm sure you must all get tired of these threads but I really do not know where else to get advice. So appreciate any in advance.

My wife recently boarded a train at Telford without a ticket and, as the conductor did not make their way down the train, looked to purchase a ticket at barriers at Shrewsbury where she was then interviewed by a member of TIL. The initial reaction was anger and to be honest still is.

On the night in question her usual bus home was cancelled and so her next option to use the trains. She is unfamiliar with Telford train station and was not aware (and still not aware, although a online search confirms it) that there were self service ticket machines. She didn't plan the journey so did not have much time before boarding the train.

The situation made us feel so angry at the train service that our reply to their initial letter was probably too strongly worded and they have now passed her details to the local courts.

It all seems a bit extreme for a simple and honest mistake. We often just board the train and pay on board and we never get told we shouldn't by on board staff. We also regularly pay for tickets at barriers and have never been advised what we are doing is against the law. We now always purchase using the Trainline APP.

There was no intent to avoid payment but simply an understanding that she could pay on the train or at the barriers. It feels to me very heavy handed. It might be worth noting this is the first time.

I also think the more we have tried to explain the evening in question and why she got on the train without a ticket the bigger the hole we have dug for ourselves. We are just trying to be honest and explain that she had no intention of not paying but they are now claiming she was rushing and therefor clearly had no intention of paying.

Again any advice on these matters would be appreciated.

By the way they did offer a admin charge of £85 but in our anger we said that we wouldn't pay as she did nothing wrong, we now wish we could take that back.

All the best

Darren

That sounds rough. Settlements are sometimes still possible after a legal process has started.

Would you like to upload the correspondence (with identifying details removed, text or image)?

My first thought is that a somewhat grovelling response apologising for your previous tone and offering to settle the matter including any additional costs incurred might be worth a try.

Thanks some bloke, I hope so as we are tired of the process now and just want out.

Thank you also Haywain, it's certainly worth a try

I've uploaded what they have sent to my wife along with the letter to them. Unfortunately I don't have the initial letter sent as it was hand written :/

Thanks again

Would you like to ensure they are free from identifying elements?

To spell out what previous posters have implied:

The railway (and Transport Investigations Ltd (TIL), who work for the railway) have done nothing legally wrong. Your wife didn't buy a ticket when she should and could have done: when TIL offered an opportunity to settle, she declined it. So their next logical step is to take the matter to court.

I think @Haywain's advice above is good: try grovelling, and see if TIL are prepared to reinstate the settlement offer.

Otherwise, matters may proceed to court. There are broadly 2 routes at that point:

- your wife pleads guilty by post. This minimises the fine to be paid
- your wife attends court. Even at that late point, it may be possible to agree a settlement before going into court (good news) but by forcing TIL to make their case, your wife will have lost any chance of minimising the fine if the case does go to a hearing (less good).

Being convicted will mean that your wife has to pay a fine and costs,which together are likely to exceed the settlement you declined. The fine is based on weekly income, so it would be sensible to round up payslips, bank statements and so on to demonstrate how much your wife has coming in: failure to do this will mean that the court makes some assumptions about income - and they tend to assume a fairly high income.

Conviction may also result in a criminal record. There's some debate on this forum as to whether being convicted for a byelaw offence leads to a criminal record, but please don't over-estimate the seriousness of this. A few professions see any conviction as an absolute bar to employment, but most organisations understand that from time to time people make mistakes - and see a single railway offence in that light. What they may well object to are attempts to cover up the original offence, in that taken with the original offence that looks like a pattern of bad behaviour. So although it will be embarrassing, your wife needs to be prepared to be open about what happened if she is convicted.

Well spotted some bloke, I have amended

Thank you for the detailed reply Fawkes Cat. Grovelling seems the best option to try and at this point there nothing to lose in trying.

It still doesn't feel right morally to me. The attitude of Railway staff seems to encourage boarding without a ticket and purchasing at a later point. Even my Dad said the other day that he will 'just buy a ticket on the train'. Maybe this is Mid Wales conditioning? It's what we do and have always done. Obviously at Shrewsbury we have a ticket office that I always use but at smaller stations we just naturally board and pay on the train and I have never been advised that this was un acceptable, which why I got my back up.

But yes, thank you for the replies. Best start my grovel letter

BTW - would a guilty plea by post lead to a criminal record?

Take care

Darren

Darren1664 said:

BTW - would a guilty plea by post lead to a criminal record?

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Potentially. The question mark is over the nature of the offence and whether it can or cannot generate a criminal record; not how any plea or judgement is made.

Reading their last letter I'm wondering if there's a possibility they're hinting at.

I'm not sure it's necessarily true that much damage has been done by the tone of your wife's letter that you've uploaded. Their talking about putting your case on the court list may be just down to the fact that she didn't accept the offer. Your wife seems to make reasonable points about expectations that the train company has generated by letting people pay on trains and on arrival.

At the end of their letter at the end of May, the author says,

"*if* the matter proceeds to magistrate's court" and then

"I have...asked...team to list your case at the next available hearing".

Others may comment on the precise language of that last quotation and what it might mean, but it seems to me as a non-expert that they may be saying they aren't proceeding just yet. I wonder if they are trying to give your wife another chance.

If we also consider that there might be administrative delays, it might be worth emailing them on Monday morning or before, saying that she's now prepared to settle and pay the fare and their admin costs - which we might not expect to be the same as last time.

One point: You say your wife

Darren1664 said:

was not aware...that there were self service ticket machines.

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but her letter says,

darren1664's wife said:

The self service facilities and ticket office on the station of my boarding were closed
...When I arrived at the poorly lit and unsafe station no ticket machine was available, all buildings were closed

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It would seem useful to clear this up, and also if you could try and summarise for members here what was in her first letter.

There are points that could be made about their claim that passengers have to look for a conductor if they can't buy a ticket at the origin station; whether that is appropriate to bring up at this stage is maybe something that could be discussed.

some bloke said:

There are points that could be made about their claim that passengers have to look for a conductor if they can't buy a ticket at the origin station; whether that is appropriate to bring up at this stage is maybe something that could be discussed

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That is something that have clearly NOT said in the second letter.

Haywain said:

That is something that have clearly NOT said in the second letter.

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I believe they have. It's the second paragraph of original image 298, which refers to a previous email of 23 May.

Thanks again some bloke for your reply and reassurance. Thanks also to Haywain and Darandio for their contributions.

To clear up the misleading statements about the ticket machine (and this is where we make things harder for ourselves) -

On the night this happened my wife did not know there was a ticket machine and boarded the train in the hope to purchase on board as is the normal practice for her. She's never had to do any different except at larger stations with barriers and box offices open late, in which case she purchases with the box office but never the ticket machine. They are completely off her radar (and mine for that matter).

After a conversation she had with a colleague in work she was told that the machines were in the ticket office and hence why the second says 'The self service facilities and ticket office on the station of my boarding were closed' which I agree is awkwardly worded and probably did not help matters and was said only in an attempt to defend herself from these accusations.

On further investigation the station does have a ticket machine. It is on platform 1 (my wife boarded on platform 2) and is not clearly visible. As to signage I do not know. As her bus was cancelled she obviously went into 'how do I get home mode' but even so buying a ticket on board has never been an issue and so natural instinct says to buy on board the train, especially late at night on a closed up station.

I went to Shrewsbury station tonight and the information on how serious an offence not purchasing a ticket prior to board is is limited. The posters simply blur into the background against advertisements. No conductors mention it when selling offenders tickets on trains or at barriers. When my wife got pulled over the the TIL officer the emotions were anger and disbelief.

I realise now that there is no escaping this other than paying the £86 fine but it is very disappointing to me as a loyal paying customers who have simply grown accustomed to breaking the law unintentionally.

Thank for all the advise

Darren

Darren1664 said:

it is very disappointing to me as a loyal paying customers who have simply grown accustomed to breaking the law unintentionally.

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Yes, that's understandable.

It might be worth putting any explanation about ticket machines in a different file, to keep the main email short (I'm assuming here that it's sensible to email by Monday morning, though you may also want to send something by real mail).

Someone on here may be able to advise as to whether the admin charge - not a fine, which only the court can impose - may have risen because they've done more work in the meantime.

The second-to-last paragraph in their first letter perhaps means the second letter will give you another 7 days to pay the £86.10, so you might mention that.

There may be another way.

The 7 days would appear to start from when you receive their letter saying the file has been "reviewed". This last letter says the file has now been fully reviewed.

So at least arguably, the 7 days would seem to apply. If that hasn't elapsed since you received the letter, you could try paying today according to the instructions in their first letter. Even if it has elapsed, you might think you can't lose by paying.

If that works, your wife could email:

"In your first letter you stated that if, after my reply and your review of the file, you still considered that legal action was appropriate, "we will allow a further 7 days for you to take up the opportunity [of the administrative disposal]".

Your last letter states that you have now fully reviewed the file. Accordingly, I have now paid the amount requested. Please confirm that the matter is now closed".

The email could also briefly apologise for anything she considers appropriate -
eg: "I apologise for writing that no ticket machine was available - I did so after not realising it was on the other platform, and subsequently being told by an acquaintance that the only such facility was in the closed ticket office."

(They said your wife "now claimed" that the "ticket selling facilities were not working", which seems to imply something different from what she did say).

As the ticket machine was on the other platform, there might be an argument that signage was inadequate. You might prefer to wait for other people to comment on that or other aspects before attempting to pay; as you have understandably said you just want out, paying might be easiest.

Thanks again some bloke, this information is very useful and I appreciate the very well worded email.

I've been doing some research into this and even after paying the administration I may continue to press this but do so without the fear of court.

I noticed also that they claimed we are saying the machines were broken when in fact we never made such a claim, just that the machines were unavailable which to her understanding they were.

The TVM in Telford on platform 1 is placed out of view of all passengers and next to the car park, which really doesn't help.

I really feel let down by the train company. The sheer lack of information provided to customers has blown me away. I'm not sure if this could be a regional thing but as previously mentioned I grew up in Mid Wales where the normal practice is to board and pay on the train because of booking offices close in the afternoon (if we have them) and there are no ticket vending machines (although apparently there is in Caersws now - my home station which amazes me because I don't know where they hide it?). I've been doing this for over 20 years and all of this is news to me and has literally turned my world upside down. It's sounds silly but imagine someone telling you that walking was illegal? Boarding a train without a ticket and paying the conductor is as natural to me as walking. The same goes for my wife.

Any one I've taken a tangent.

It's a great help some bloke so thank you. I will let you know how we get on tomorrow and hopefully they will simply let us pay and move on.

All the best

Darren

Cheers, Darren.

Darren1664 said:

I will let you know how we get on tomorrow and hopefully they will simply let us pay and move on.

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As you want to just pay, given what they said about the 7 days, I'd try to pay first and email them afterwards. Perhaps that's what you're going to do anyway.

If you want to press this later, there's also their claim about people having to look for a conductor if they can't buy a ticket. That's strange given that the offence they seem to refer to - a Byelaw offence - doesn't apply where someone couldn't buy a ticket. That could be discussed later.

Darren1664 said:

We now always purchase using the Trainline APP.

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Trainline charge a booking fee of £1.50; booking through Train Operating Companies' (LNER, Cross Country, Southern etc.) own websites do not.

Thanks again some bloke and MotCO

Sorry to drag up my thread again but I have since realised there was another letter which I had not uploaded (I rang them today and they mentioned it and I went rummaging)

I've attached it and it seems they are prosecuting under section 5.3 (a) Regulations of Railways Act (1889) - intent to avoid payment.

I don't really knows what this means to be honest. We were asked to email in which we have done and they will then decide if we can settle or not. If not then this will proceed to court.

I have barely slept the past week and genuinely feel depressed by all of this (even though it's my wife under fire not me :P).

I just don't understand how you can go from all happy clappy one day, using the trains as normal, paying your fare as normal - no one cares, everyones cool with it - to prosecution with a potential criminal record which could have some drastic consequences. Like what on earth! She did nothing out of the ordinary. I just can't fathom how it can come to this so quickly and so easily and we're just left out in the cold without barely any chance of adequately pleading our innocence. Ripped a new one as they say and by a company we have done nothing but support for years, for an offence we didn't even knew existed and all because we got let done by Arriva's bus service, the irony!

Sorry to rant just beaten by this

Darren

I believe from what I've learnt from an earlier experience, them prosecuting your wife under RoRA does lead to a criminal record, unlike a byelaw offence (although there was some discussion on whether it could happen with the latter). Definitely in your best interest to settle out of court. Make sure you sound completely apologetic, include as much information as possible. Best of luck.

I've got a lot of sympathy with your situation - train companies are not consistent on enforcing these rules. This is complicated by the fact that some stations have ticket purchasing facilities, and others don't, so that the experience of the passenger varies quite a bit depending where you board.

However, I'd strongly advise you to put the unfairness or otherwise about this at the back of your mind as much as possible while you deal with the case. The reality of the matter is that the train company and TIL are exercising their rights in this case and the clearer your head can be when dealing with this, the better.

A couple of questions as letters and actions have been presented in a slightly muddled order:
1. Is the letter stating that they intend to prosecute under the Regulation of the Railways Act the most recent letter? Importantly, did it come after the offer to settle for £86.10?
2. You've now emailed them, apologized and offered to settle? Have you also attempted to pay the £86.10 as some bloke suggested?

Presuming that the threatened prosecution was the most recent letter, and that you have emailed them apologizing and offering to settle, then in the short term you will have to wait and see if they accept that offer.

If they don't, then a Regulation of the Railways Act prosecution is the more serious of the legislation that your wife can be prosecuted under. It creates a criminal record that must be declared for 12 months, and will remain permanently on enhanced DBS checks. A likely punishment for a conviction would be a fine of somewhere between 25-125% of 'relevant weekly income' (weekly income minus essential costs) depending on other mitigating factors (unless there's something you've not told us eg your wife threatened to assault the guard, or admitted to doing this multiple times, my guess would be her fine would fall in the lower end of that bracket).

However, to obtain such a conviction, they have to show an intent to avoid a fare. The intent does not have to be permanent, but it does have to be proven. I'd have thought that this is not the easiest case to prove intent, but that it might be possible. Based on what you said, and noting that we don't have the evidence to hand, the train company's evidence might be based on:

1. Arguing that your wife only stopped because she saw staff at the barrier at Shrewsbury; in other words, that had they not been there, she would have left without buying a ticket. It is likely in her interview on the day that she was asked a question along those lines - if she said "yes, I'd have left the station" then that would be used as supporting evidence for intent
2. Arguing that your wife lied about ticket purchasing facilities being unavailable at Telford, therefore attempting to deceive the RPI and avoid paying her fare

If your wife's answers when being interviewed at Shrewsbury lead towards these claims, I can see how a case could be made against her. Equally, a good lawyer may well be able to help defend her against these claims, or at the very least show that the intention was out of ignorance and lead the magistrate towards the lowest band fine or even a conditional discharge. I presume your wife travelled after the time at which Telford ticket office was shut (19:00 Mon-Sat, 17:00 on a Sunday)? This would at least help her case a little. If you make a defence on this basis, it may be worth going to the station and looking at what signage there is on platform 2 to tell people that there's a TVM on platform 1.

Of course, lawyers cost money, and they may well cost more than that 25-125% of relevant weekly income, with no guarantee of a result, so you should carefully consider whether one is needed. This depends too on the impact of a criminal record on your wife; for many people it has little effect but if she works in certain industries then the impact may be higher and so the cost more worthwhile. Frankly, the lowest cost option if a settlement is not available would probably be to admit guilt and not get a lawyer. You might be able to get a free consultation with a lawyer, which I'd recommend if TIL proceed with the summons. We can't know what evidence TIL have, the arguments that they'll make in court, or what a magistrate will decide, so any advice given here is conditional on that.

If TIL don't accept your offer, there may still be chances to persuade them to settle, before the date at court; it has happened that train companies have accepted settlements on the day, at the court.

Thank you MrJfish007 and cuccir

Still no word on a settlement but I still hope we can reach an agreement.

To answer you questions

1. Yes, the last letter attached in the second in the chain. The first included the offer to settle, then the one referencing RORA and finally the one which says my wife's name will be included in the list going to Telford Magistrates.

2. We have tried to pay but they have barred us doing so. I rang and they said we must email in, which we have now done and currently waiting their repsonse.

I don't think my wife handled it well in the heat of the moment tbh. She was confused and tired and started just saying 'I just want to pay for my ticket' whilst waving her card in the air! Probably not the best reaction but she didn't understand the trouble she was in. Unfortunely, the reaction of the innocent can look guilty.

She did board after the booking office was closed. In fact I think the booking office had closed early on that day for whatever reason because I recall her saying that she was there before 19:00 but it was already closed.

I plan to go to Telford station soon to check the signage etc. From what I can see online (someone has posted a video of the station) there is very little signs regarding the TVM and the yellow warning posted is only on platform 1.

I agree with you about the cost solicitors and the lowest cost option being to plead guilty. If she plead's guilty can she do this at the court and present her circumstances to the judge - I guess they don't have time for this. Also, I have seen free consultations being offered by specialist firms that deal with fare evsaion, so will definitely go for this once we know for sure it is going to court.

Really appreciate the advice here and the bit about 'keeping my head' is so true and much needed. I've taken myself away from all this for a couple of days just to give myself some head space and hopefully will things will be clearer from now.

Thanks for the help

Regards

Darren

Darren, could you say when you received the last letter?

When they refused to accept payment, was that before the 7 days were up (presumably meant to start from when you received it)? The first letter seems to say that people will automatically get that period.

Hi some bloke

First letter received 2 April

Second one received 30 April and

Final letter received 28 May

The first letter seems to suggest we would have 7 days from their second letter of 30 April which has obviously passed, or do you think otherwise?

Thanks again

Darren1664 said:

The first letter seems to suggest we would have 7 days from their second letter of 30 April which has obviously passed, or do you think otherwise?

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The thing is, the second letter gave your wife another opportunity to comment. The third letter said they'd now reviewed the case, which is what the 7-day offer referred to.

some bloke said:

The thing is, the second letter gave your wife another opportunity to comment. The third letter said they'd now reviewed the case, which is what the 7-day offer referred to.

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Oh I see you point. Might this give us something to work with? I guess if there's no obligation they don't have to stick to this?

I can certainly bring it to their attention if they decline our offer via email.

Darren1664 said:

Oh I see you point. Might this give us something to work with? I guess if there's no obligation they don't have to stick to this?

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Yes, this really, particularly because it's slightly based on one possible reading of the letters. I wouldn't get excited about these timings.

Hi all

Sorry it's taken me until now to come back about this...

Anway, TIL agreed to settle out of court and this issue is now behind us*

I justed wanted to thank you all for reading and commenting and providing very useful information that has deifinitely helped me. I very much appreciate that you take time to provide such useful information and you do so for many people or simply come and go. Thank you for being here'

All the best

Darren

* I just wanted to add further for anyone wanting advice that, although TIL said our case would now move to court, by emailing and calling them asking to settle they agreed to do so. Even if their letter states the option has now passed it is always worth trying to settle if this is what you wish for.

Darren1664 said:

Hi all

Sorry it's taken me until now to come back about this...

Anway, TIL agreed to settle out of court and this issue is now behind us*

I justed wanted to thank you all for reading and commenting and providing very useful information that has deifinitely helped me. I very much appreciate that you take time to provide such useful information and you do so for many people or simply come and go. Thank you for being here'

All the best

Darren

* I just wanted to add further for anyone wanting advice that, although TIL said our case would now move to court, by emailing and calling them asking to settle they agreed to do so. Even if their letter states the option has now passed it is always worth trying to settle if this is what you wish for.

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A good result. Hopefully a load off your and your wife's minds. Thanks for letting us know!