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Stagecoach legal action over franchise awards: Judgement now available

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Agent_Squash

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What private investment? Virgin have taken billions OUT of the industry. They've not put a single penny of their own money in.
You’ve completely missed Chiltern and Evergreen to prove your political point.

And anyways, the fact is VTWC has only profited since the investment (both by NR/Railtrack and with Virgin/Angel with the Pendolino’s). There’s also the small fact that after the collapse of Railtrack, the only reason that most parts of the WCRM continued was the legal agreement with Virgin. I don’t think anyone at the Treasury was exactly complaining that the VTEC fiasco actually increased the amount of money going into their coffers through the ridiculously high premium profile (that was their own fault)

Evergreen is another example. Building on the work of NSE with steady investment, giving your enemies at Virgin a bit of competition.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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What private investment? Virgin have taken billions OUT of the industry. They've not put a single penny of their own money in.

You know that's not true.
Every franchise/direct award agreement included significant investment from VT (station/fleet upgrades etc).
Maybe insignificant compared to the NR investment, but still...

Chiltern's Evergreen investment is often misrepresented as Chiltern's own money.
They did some seed-corn work certainly, but the big spend was by NR, with Chiltern paying higher access charges to fund it.
It's also how WCRM was funded, with higher TOC access charges feeding through into higher fares.
 

Tetchytyke

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Every franchise/direct award agreement included significant investment from VT (station/fleet upgrades etc).

No it didn't. It included initial capital investment from the ROSCO, recouped through fares revenue. The bearded tax dodger kept his momey safely in the BVI.
 

Tetchytyke

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Evergreen is another example.

Except it isn't, because the capital investment was from Network Rail. Chiltern pay higher access charges and, in turn, those higher access charges are paid for by the punters.

The private equity company behind John Laing didn't put their own cash in, but they took plenty out when they sold up to DB.
 

whhistle

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I think it may be you that has missed the point.
*sigh*
No... missed the point I tried to make.

Finding more and more people will answer the easy points, yet nobody has answered why Stagecoach decided it would be a good idea / acceptable to submit a non-compliant bid.

It doesn't matter whether Stagecoach, you, or your grandmas dog thinks [taking on the pensions] is a good idea... them's the rules/terms of the bid.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Finding more and more people will answer the easy points, yet nobody has answered why Stagecoach decided it would be a good idea / acceptable to submit a non-compliant bid.

Clearly, no-one can answer that with any degree of certainty, since you'd have to either have attended Stagecoach board meetings or have access to confidential internal Stagecoach documents to know the answer for sure.

But, based on everything we know, a pretty reasonable guess would be that they probably figured that the pension requirements were so absurd, so unrealistic, that no sensible business would be able to submit a bid that met the pension requirements. And therefore the DfT would ultimately be forced to choose a bidder that didn't meet those requirements.

If that's how you have read the situation, then you're probably going to conclude that it's best to submit a non-compliant bid rather than no bid at all - because if you don't bid, then the chances are your competitors will all submit non-compliant bids and one of them will definitely get the franchise.
 

option

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*sigh*
No... missed the point I tried to make.

Finding more and more people will answer the easy points, yet nobody has answered why Stagecoach decided it would be a good idea / acceptable to submit a non-compliant bid.

It doesn't matter whether Stagecoach, you, or your grandmas dog thinks [taking on the pensions] is a good idea... them's the rules/terms of the bid.

because it's not a one-off auction of an item, it's a process that involves negotiation. The initial submissions are an opening.
 

Agent_Squash

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Except it isn't, because the capital investment was from Network Rail. Chiltern pay higher access charges and, in turn, those higher access charges are paid for by the punters.

The private equity company behind John Laing didn't put their own cash in, but they took plenty out when they sold up to DB.

OK. You’d rather have government squeezing the railway (1% pay cap, and so on) than private companies taking a profit out?
 

Tetchytyke

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because it's not a one-off auction of an item, it's a process that involves negotiation. The initial submissions are an opening.

Whilst that may sometimes be true in practice (hence the VTEC bailout) it shouldn't be true with procurement. Your bid is your offer.

If that's how you have read the situation, then you're probably going to conclude that it's best to submit a non-compliant bid rather than no bid at all - because if you don't bid, then the chances are your competitors will all submit non-compliant bids and one of them will definitely get the franchise.

I think that's probably true. That and Stagecoach know fine well that DfT will usually back down when you throw enough judicial reviews at them, like in 2012.
 

coppercapped

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Whilst that may sometimes be true in practice (hence the VTEC bailout) it shouldn't be true with procurement. Your bid is your offer.
SNIP

That statement shows your lack of experience in the commercial world.

Your statement might be true if you are buying something out of a catalogue. Even then there can be negotiations about call-off quantities, billing, quality and guarantees and so on. Basically your statement is not true for all cases.

Until I retired I have run, and responded to, many procurement competitions over many years in high tech industries (aerospace, computers and mobile telecoms) and the opening bid was ALWAYS the starting point for negotiations. Nobody gets either the original specification nor the initial response exactly right the first time. Negotiations are the way the parties come to a mutual agreement on both the technical and business aspects of the procurement exercise.

Unless, of course, one of the parties is the DfT which must have got the specification absolutely correct. o_O
 

option

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Whilst that may sometimes be true in practice (hence the VTEC bailout) it shouldn't be true with procurement. Your bid is your offer.

but it's not procurement, the DfT aren't doing a deal with a stationery supplier to manage all their needs for 5 years, they're not doing a deal with a property firm to supply, maintain & service Xmetres of office space for 5 years. Those are relatively simply 1to1 relationships, & once the contract is signed, that's pretty much it.


You've got DfT, local authorities, NR, ROSCO's, & then the prospective TOCs.

The pTOCs have been burnt by;
ROSCOs not having new stock on time, but you deal with that by keeping the existing stock & the ROSCO has to deal with it, & you just delay the start date of the already agreed services (so a known that can be dealt with)
NR overruns (a known that can be dealt with)
Future responses to the above 2 will be, & must be, open to negotiation when bidding for a franchise.

DfT wholesale cancelling major projects (an unknown that will have caused chaos)
A new one, & again, the response to this must be open to negotiation when bidding for a franchise.


DfT now want to put in a completely unknown financial commitment
How do you negotiate if there's no numbers? What if one of the above 3 massively affects the financials?
 

Tetchytyke

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Until I retired I have run, and responded to, many procurement competitions over many years in high tech industries (aerospace, computers and mobile telecoms) and the opening bid was ALWAYS the starting point for negotiations.

Indeed not, however in a competitive tendering process where there is a defined winner it's not quite to say it's the first step of negotiation. Ironing out the fine details? Yep. Wholesale changes? Less so.

If Stagecoach did the latter- as I suspect they did- it's a risky strategy. Still, depends how much muck they can fling.
 

coppercapped

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Indeed not, however in a competitive tendering process where there is a defined winner it's not quite to say it's the first step of negotiation. Ironing out the fine details? Yep. Wholesale changes? Less so.

If Stagecoach did the latter- as I suspect they did- it's a risky strategy. Still, depends how much muck they can fling.
I repeat - your knowledge of the commercial world is incomplete and, if I may be so bold as to say so, very one sided.

At the start of any procurement the first question to be answered is 'Make or buy?'

One buys a good or service if one doesn't have the skills or the knowledge to develop it or make it oneself at an economic price and in an acceptable time.

In essence one is buying expertise. The person doing the procurement has (or should have) a deep understanding of his, or her, own business and has a good idea what the service or product should do. They may not know the best way to achieve the ends they are looking for, so they start a procurement exercise. The initial specification they prepare will include not only the 'must haves' but also the 'nice to haves'. The ensuing negotiations will price these outcomes - and may suggest a faster/smaller/cheaper/more reliable way of achieving the ends required. In turn the procuring organisation may accept a solution which is more limited - but very much cheaper. Or, alternatively, it might chose to go with a more expensive solution that addresses a different part of the market but requires changes to the original product or service specification.

I have been involved with procurements which have led to both outcomes. Wholesale changes can, and do, happen.
 

43096

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I repeat - your knowledge of the commercial world is incomplete and, if I may be so bold as to say so, very one sided.

At the start of any procurement the first question to be answered is 'Make or buy?'

One buys a good or service if one doesn't have the skills or the knowledge to develop it or make it oneself at an economic price and in an acceptable time.

In essence one is buying expertise. The person doing the procurement has (or should have) a deep understanding of his, or her, own business and has a good idea what the service or product should do. They may not know the best way to achieve the ends they are looking for, so they start a procurement exercise. The initial specification they prepare will include not only the 'must haves' but also the 'nice to haves'. The ensuing negotiations will price these outcomes - and may suggest a faster/smaller/cheaper/more reliable way of achieving the ends required. In turn the procuring organisation may accept a solution which is more limited - but very much cheaper. Or, alternatively, it might chose to go with a more expensive solution that addresses a different part of the market but requires changes to the original product or service specification.

I have been involved with procurements which have led to both outcomes. Wholesale changes can, and do, happen.
The truth, in so many ways - thanks for posting - and one that tallies with my experience.

I suspect you are wasting your time with the likes of “Arctic Troll” who can’t see beyond his usual blinkered rhetoric on Virgin and Stagecoach.
 

whhistle

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because it's not a one-off auction of an item, it's a process that involves negotiation. The initial submissions are an opening.
Umm, I wouldn't see franchise awards like that.

The government says what they want ("The Requirements")
The pre-approved bidders say what they'll do (including what the government wants).
The government looks at each bid.
(they may ask for clarification on some points of the bid)
The government awards a franchise.

While negotiations canhappen during franchises, the initial award is simply down to who will provide the best value for money, heavily weighed by the governments requirements. It isn't an invitation to start changing the requirements.

Maybe I have understood wrongly though.
 

Tetchytyke

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They may not know the best way to achieve the ends they are looking for, so they start a procurement exercise. The initial specification they prepare will include not only the 'must haves' but also the 'nice to haves'. The ensuing negotiations will price these outcomes - and may suggest a faster/smaller/cheaper/more reliable way of achieving the ends required.

All very intetesting, but simply not how franchising works.

The Government says what they want. Prospective franchisees say how they will achieve that, and at what price. The Government chooses a winning bidder who most closely matches the spec.

Later down the line when the franchise starts things will, in some situations, change. And ironing out the finer details always takes time.

But it's not right to say that the bid is simply the opening salvo in a negotiation process. And especially not, as with Stagecoach, where a bidder has failed to meet the essential criteria.

Franchising is very much a one-off auction. It's an auction of the right to run a franchise. The Government are not buying in expertise or widgets, they are selling a trainset.
 

Tetchytyke

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I suspect you are wasting your time with the likes of “Arctic Troll” who can’t see beyond his usual blinkered rhetoric on Virgin and Stagecoach.

Government is not buying in expertise, it is selling the right to run a franchise. It is an auction.

And Stagecoach put a bid in that wasn't acceptable.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Government is not buying in expertise, it is selling the right to run a franchise. It is an auction.
And Stagecoach put a bid in that wasn't acceptable.

Not saying anything about the Stagecoach disqualification, but the WCP franchise is hardly a fixed quantity with a clear spec.
You are precisely buying expertise to deliver the HS2 side of the franchise, and the existing West Coast operation is not a walk in the park either.
It's also highly political in terms of foreign influence on our transport policy (despite the DfT seeking such "world class" input on HS operation at the start).
Since the WCP procurement started, fortunes have upended spectacularly, with all the TOCs in financial trouble and the DfT in ever-increasing political hot water on its rail policy.
Not to mention the impending change of government and maybe rail policy as well.
In the circumstances, the WCP award is very far from being a mere auction.
 

Northhighland

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Umm, I wouldn't see franchise awards like that.

The government says what they want ("The Requirements")
The pre-approved bidders say what they'll do (including what the government wants).
The government looks at each bid.
(they may ask for clarification on some points of the bid)
The government awards a franchise.

While negotiations canhappen during franchises, the initial award is simply down to who will provide the best value for money, heavily weighed by the governments requirements. It isn't an invitation to start changing the requirements.

Maybe I have understood wrongly though.

You make the error of thinking the requirement s are correct tin the first place. AS I understand it the argument is the governments requirements are not in line with procurement law. The government is not above the law nor is it all that uncommon for them to be wrong. That is what the court will decide. They obviously feel thy have a case to put.
 

DavidGrain

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As I understanding is that the government want the new franchisee to take responsibility for a pension fund deficit of an unquantified liability in respect of past service entitlements by rail staff. Rail staff on a change of franchisee get TUPEd to their new employer. In a commercial situation with a change of ownership after say a takeover bid the new employer would immediately close the existing pension scheme to further contributions by employees and immediately set up a new scheme. Now the Pension Regulator would demand that that any deficit on the old scheme would be covered so the new employer would have taken that into account in deciding the bid price after taking account of the due diligence investigations.

My understanding is that the DfT is unable to provide this information to the bidders and therefore Stagecoach/Virgin have submitted a bid with conditions about that which has caused DfT to disqualify the bids. The question I would ask is why did the remaining bidder not do the same so has won the bid by default. I am reminded of a comment that was made to me by an electrician I employed many years ago to rewire my house. He said that if he goes to see a house to give an estimate and he sees other electricians there in the queue to quote, he turns round and drives away as he realises that the house owner is just looking for the one who will make a mistake in his pricing.
 

coppercapped

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All very intetesting, but simply not how franchising works.

The Government says what they want. Prospective franchisees say how they will achieve that, and at what price. The Government chooses a winning bidder who most closely matches the spec.

Later down the line when the franchise starts things will, in some situations, change. And ironing out the finer details always takes time.

But it's not right to say that the bid is simply the opening salvo in a negotiation process. And especially not, as with Stagecoach, where a bidder has failed to meet the essential criteria.

Franchising is very much a one-off auction. It's an auction of the right to run a franchise. The Government are not buying in expertise or widgets, they are selling a trainset.
I suggest that it's time that you learnt what the franchising system is and what it is not and how it has changed out of all recognition since the mid-90s.

The Government is not selling a trainset - it is awarding a time-limited contract to operate trains. The ownership of the train set remains with the Government and the rolling stock leasing or train service delivery companies as the case maybe.

The Government has answered the 'make or buy' question by accepting that it itself does not have the necessary expertise to operate the trains. It has therefore elected to buy in the expertise.

It does this by issuing an Invitation to Tender (ITT) to interested parties outlining its requirements. Following this negotiations take place until terms and conditions acceptable to both parties are reached.

Nominally the Government's criteria are lowest subsidy or highest premium over the life of the contract on a Net Present Value basis and a rather flexible 'Value for Money' consideration. In turn the train operator gains a reasonably assured cash flow and an element of profit, now around 2% of turnover down from around 5% in the early days of franchising.

Even this 2% is vanishing as can be seen in the financial issues facing, among others, Greater Anglia, South West Railway, East Coast/VTEC and now Northern.

These experiences now show that the terms and conditions of the current form of franchise are not flexible enough to cope with changes in the global travel market or delays and overruns in infrastructure provision and that the DfT is incapable of adjusting the franchise agreement and unwilling to admit that another part of it (Network Rail) has been incorrectly instructed or funded.

The financial consequences of delays in the introduction of new trains is an issue that the TOCs have to carry themselves.

You make the error of thinking the requirement s are correct tin the first place. AS I understand it the argument is the governments requirements are not in line with procurement law. The government is not above the law nor is it all that uncommon for them to be wrong. That is what the court will decide. They obviously feel thy have a case to put.
Exactly, the ITT is often incorrect as the part of the DfT which prepares the ITT for the train operator has not checked with another part of the DfT (Network Rail) that the physical infrastructure is capable of supporting the outline train service plan in the ITT.

More important is the concept that all bidders have to be treated equally. In this case, as in the 2012 case of the West Coast franchise competition, the bidders feel that there have been irregularities in the way that the DfT has handled the evaluations of the bids. As I understand it the legal challenges are more concerned with procedure than whether the details in the ITT were correct. Specifically if the DfT was going to disallow non-compliant bids - mainly concerned with the pensions issues - these should have been been made clear at the start of the process and not a few days before the winning bid was announced so the bidders did not have to spend time and money on further negotiations on a bid which the DfT had already secretly rejected.

This is in addition to the rights and the wrongs of the pensions issues - which is another legal challenge.
 
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DavidGrain

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Basically in disqualifying bids the DfT is saying that the contract is non-negotiable except on price. I thought that the idea of coming down to a short-list of preferred bidders is to say, these are the people that we are prepared to negotiate with. The others who have been eliminated have submitted tenders which are so wide of the mark so no need to enter into any further negotiations with them. Surely anyone submitting a tender document is entitled to say, these are points on which we need clarification and these are points which we need to discuss further. Otherwise the invitation to tender will ask for sealed bids giving best and final offers which will just require a single sheet of paper with a cash sum written on it.
 

Meerkat

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The short list is before tendering isn’t it?
I thought that just weeded out those not qualified to do it.
 

Antman

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You'd think it's sensible to invite a few comments with the bid. Except, they don't. Thy say "sign this", it's a declaration that you are willing to enter into the contract on the terms on which you have been provided. You can mark up the contract, but the scoring is such that it will be marked down heavily.

You can ask CQs through the process. They will inevitably be answered badly or inadequately. Or just plain fudged to say nothing.

The process is bananas. The people procuring know it's flawed, they know they get paid on a successful procurement, not a successful contract. And the best bidder often doesn't win.

I have managed various bids and awards of some very large public sector procurements (heading towards the billions of contract value). Every single one is premised on a laughably weak contract, nonsense specification and is full of enormous "TBAs" in the details. And some ridiculous statements that your bid is final, despite a fair bit of the information you got from the procurement team being so inadequate, incorrect or plain contradictory.. I can't think of anything worth more than £10M that hasn't had a side letter about commercials in it (side letters somehow avoid becoming public and mainly contain the juicy bits that would open up a contract to a challenge from another unsuccessful bidder...).

Usually, everyone muddles along as tries to make it work despite the contract. And you always get one person metaphorically waving the contract at you saying "you signed it, you signed it" doing a virtual triumphant jig as if they got a fish hooked. And that person is always taken out of the process as they are utterly unhelpful and their superiors replace them with someone who tries to make it work.

The odd one still ends in loggerheads. And QCs get involved. I have one on at the moment. There is no right answer. On either side. And all you get is utter intractability (we'll settle, provided you give us what we demand) and lawyers and accountants get rich. And it's useless. IT's been going on eight years. The contract ended 4 years ago. It's about ..... pensions.
 

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Stagecoach chief executive Martin Griffiths said: 'We believe the rail system should be about appointing the best operator for customers, not about passing unquantifiable, unmanageable and inappropriate risk to train companies.”

This is far from my area of expertise, but couldn't this risk be insured against? I'm sure Stagecoach could have found someone to provide insurance at a cost of £X billion, and then whacked £X billion onto their bid. Isn't that what the other bidders will have done?
 

StaffsWCML

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This is far from my area of expertise, but couldn't this risk be insured against? I'm sure Stagecoach could have found someone to provide insurance at a cost of £X billion, and then whacked £X billion onto their bid. Isn't that what the other bidders will have done?

How can you insure against something you have no idea of what the cost is?

Most things have a defined value, not changed by any number of variables.

I would be surprised if there were any insurer daft enough to underwrite something with no defined value, its a sure fire way to end up bankrupt!

The companies that win the bids will either be incompetent risk takers or cut back services to pathetic levels.
 

hwl

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This is far from my area of expertise, but couldn't this risk be insured against? I'm sure Stagecoach could have found someone to provide insurance at a cost of £X billion, and then whacked £X billion onto their bid. Isn't that what the other bidders will have done?
DfT had apparently agreed a pension problem solution with RDG, which was different to that in earlier one in the EM ITT. Stagecoach apparently proposed the later DfT-RDG solution in their bids hence their surprise that a DfT approve solution isn't OK...
Looks like some internal communication issues in DfT and different parts need to learn to talk to each other.
 

infobleep

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DfT had apparently agreed a pension problem solution with RDG, which was different to that in earlier one in the EM ITT. Stagecoach apparently proposed the later DfT-RDG solution in their bids hence their surprise that a DfT approve solution isn't OK...
Looks like some internal communication issues in DfT and different parts need to learn to talk to each other.
If that is indeed the case then on the face of it, it seems Stagecoach might ha e a strong case.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The process is bananas. The people procuring know it's flawed, they know they get paid on a successful procurement, not a successful contract. And the best bidder often doesn't win.

What's so odd about the West Coast ITT is that half of it (classic WCML) is just routine train service procurement, which both sides, especially Stagecoach/Virgin as incumbent, know inside out, while the other half (HS2) is pie in the sky stuff with a spec and timescale everybody knows is largely fiction.
And yet the HS2 side of it is the exotic piece that both the bidders and DfT want to contract so they can live off the PR for a decade or so.
A sane DfT would have deferred the HS2 part until the line/service spec was firmed up.
And meanwhile, another DfT team is merrily procuring the rolling stock for HS2, with no choice for the "world class" operator.
It might be merciful if both procurements were put back in the "pending" tray for a couple of years.
But that wouldn't suit the politicians under the HS2 cosh...

Anyway, the PM selection process will put the brakes on for a couple of months, and it might all change when the new team is appointed.
I can't see then announcing a WCP award in June as promised, unless Theresa May wants it for her "legacy", which seems highly unlikely.
She has enough of a toxic legacy as it is.
 
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