LNR new WCML timetable, May 2019 (in open data feeds)

E6007 · 2 Jun 2019

Bad afternoon at Rugeley TV yesterday. I lighted from 12:32 Crewe at RTV to take 13:13 to Birmingham New St. The following Chase Line services were cancelled:

12:46 to Birmingham Int - don't know what happened to the 09:24 ex Euston
13:13 to Euston - 10:15 Euston portion terminated Hednesford 22 late
13:46 to Birmingham Int - 10:24 Euston terminated Hednesford 26 late
14:13 to Euston - 11:15 Euston terminated Hednesford 14 late

to top it all, 14:05 Trent Valley service to Euston was 50 late leaving Crewe.

So now Chase Line service for 150 minutes and a 2 hour gap on trains to Euston!

RailUK Forums

Glenn1969 · 2 Jun 2019

There is no info on RTT for the 0924 ex Euston after Perry Barr where it passed 39 mins late despite being more or less on time ex New Street. So something clearly happened just outside New Street yesterday lunchtime unless RTT is wrong

Bletchleyite · 2 Jun 2019

sufian123 said:
Not enough 323s. Cross city suffering as it is as well.

OK, get some more 319s in then, or other spare EMUs. There's no great EMU shortage nationally.

Bletchleyite · 2 Jun 2019

700007 said:
Only acceptable interworking would be stuff like Tring and Milton Keynes alternating as that's roughly the same geographical area and Walsall - Wolverhampton / Birmingham - Liverpool.

Again Walsall-Wolves should not be using 350s, it's a waste of them. Get some 319s on those.

Liverpool-Brum seems to have so many issues it shouldn't be interworking with anything at all, bar maybe the International stopper if it is felt best to avoid terminating at New St.

sufian123 · 2 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
OK, get some more 319s in then, or other spare EMUs. There's no great EMU shortage nationally.

I asked London midland manager about threat years ago. The only reason 350s used is because is to create extra capacity on cross city line,weekdays. Weekend all day is 323s. It’s only weekdays they using it. 319s not cleared beyond Northampton. Whatever that means.

sufian123 · 2 Jun 2019

sufian123 said:
I asked London midland manager about threat years ago. The only reason 350s used is because is to create extra capacity on cross city line,weekdays. Weekend all day is 323s. It’s only weekdays they using it. 319s not cleared beyond Northampton. Whatever that means.

319 in passenger service beyond Northampton. Not cleared. They could ECS them, use them on the local. Full of excuse they are.

RealTrains07 · 2 Jun 2019

700007 said:
If there is an opportunity to do so, I would support a Liverpool Lime Street via Trent Valley and split the current London - Birmingham - Liverpool back into a London to Birmingham and Birmingham to Liverpool service. I would have gotten rid of the Crewe & Rugeley train as well but for political reasons passengers and MPs I can't imagine will be pleased having a new direct London service gone so soon so I would keep it as the only splitting train there is. I definitely agree with Bletchleyite that diagrams both trains and crew should ideally be as self contained as possible to maximise reliability. Only acceptable interworking would be stuff like Tring and Milton Keynes alternating as that's roughly the same geographical area and Walsall - Wolverhampton / Birmingham - Liverpool.

I see where your coming from. As someone who relies on trains on the stoke loop every day i would much rather have a service between crewe and birmingham rather than it being taken to london. Probably would be able to have more frequent service then possibly.

I dont see how changing at stafford for london trains is a big issue for people but their you go.

Their is capacity technically since it removes 1 of the 2 birmingham to liverpool train since 1 Liverpool is worked on trent valley

RealTrains07 · 2 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Again Walsall-Wolves should not be using 350s, it's a waste of them. Get some 319s on those.

I swear it’s solely 323 operated now

sufian123 · 2 Jun 2019

RealTrains07 said:
I swear it’s solely 323 operated now

No. 350s used on weekdays 4 350s used all day. Saturday solely 323s. And sunday now all say 350s

sufian123 · 2 Jun 2019

There is a such thing as a local Walsall - wolves diagram as such now. Remember Crewe/Liverpool services come to Brum then continue to Northampton/Euston. There is a franchise commitment to run services via these routes as it was in the original DFT budding requirements.

That is why 350s being used on local routes. Found the response.

DavidGrain · 2 Jun 2019

sufian123 said:
No. 350s used on weekdays 4 350s used all day. Saturday solely 323s. And sunday now all say 350s

Are they not using diesels as well in peak times because of the need for 350s to cover the Rugeley services which were previously pre electrification diesels to New Street.

sufian123 · 2 Jun 2019

DavidGrain said:
Are they not using diesels as well in peak times because of the need for 350s to cover the Rugeley services which were previously pre electrification diesels to New Street.

Class 170s/153s are sole of this route. Drivers and conductors sign it. They are Shrewsbury crews doing it. 350s needed as it’s part of their franchise agreement. Was for London midland as well. We like it or not.

sufian123 · 2 Jun 2019

sufian123 said:
Class 170s/153s are sole of this route. Drivers and conductors sign it. They are Shrewsbury crews doing it. 350s needed as it’s part of their franchise agreement. Was for London midland as well. We like it or not.

Or use 323s

si404 · 2 Jun 2019

RealTrains07 said:
I did mention a earlier on in the thread it would make more sense the trent valley stoppers being extended to liverpool instead of birmingham. Good idea now i think?

no. Liverpool is better with 2tph Birmingham than 2tph London avoiding Brum. There's only room north of Crewe for 2 LNWR services.

When there's space post-HS2 phase 2b, then absolutely. But if the demand was London, then they'd have done the change years ago. The Liverpool-New Street-Euston service is about operations (remove terminators from New St, though they have done this in an over-complex way, leading to most of the problems), revenue raiding, and political gimmickry. It's not about Liverpool-London traffic beyond politics and coincidence.

Ianno87 · 2 Jun 2019

si404 said:
no. Liverpool is better with 2tph Birmingham than 2tph London avoiding Brum. There's only room north of Crewe for 2 LNWR services.

Agree - if it's 2tph the limit, the current 2tph (half an hour apart ish) are probably better than 1+1 (not 30 mins apart) for the 'breaad and butter' LNWR day job.

DavidGrain · 2 Jun 2019

When we are told that 319s are not cleared north of Northampton, is it because no one has actually taken one out and measured clearances etc. or is it simply that no train crews or maintenance staff in depots north of Northampton have signed for them.

Ianno87 · 2 Jun 2019

DavidGrain said:
When we are told that 319s are not cleared north of Northampton, is it because no one has actually taken one out and measured clearances etc. or is it simply that no train crews or maintenance staff in depots north of Northampton have signed for them.

319s used to reach Rugby on the old Connex Rugby-Gatwick service...plus the Northern ones were sent that way, I think.

Spirit555 · 2 Jun 2019

The Walsall to Wolves are a mix of 323/350 weekdays and solely 323 on weekends.

The diesels cover some peak weekday diagrams and are operate by pairs of 170/5's. The Dogboxes are now solely confined to Worcester/Hereford services and crewed by Worcester men. I have personally seen the pairs of 170's and one definitely operates the 1027 ex Birmingham New Street (BHM), 1101 ex Walsall.

There is also a Rugeley to Wolves on a Saturday evening which is 350 operated, leaving Walsall at 2032. I travelled on that last night and on arrival at New Street it went right to very far end of platform 4B.

sufian123 · 2 Jun 2019

DavidGrain said:
When we are told that 319s are not cleared north of Northampton, is it because no one has actually taken one out and measured clearances etc. or is it simply that no train crews or maintenance staff in depots north of Northampton have signed for them.

319s can do it. No one signs them beyond Northampton. They are based far as Northampton. None at Coventry/Crewe/new st sign them.

sufian123 · 2 Jun 2019

Spirit555 said:
The Walsall to Wolves are a mix of 323/350 weekdays and solely 323 on weekends.

The diesels cover some peak weekday diagrams and are operate by pairs of 170/5's. The Dogboxes are now solely confined to Worcester/Hereford services and crewed by Worcester men. I have personally seen the pairs of 170's and one definitely operates the 1027 ex BHM, 1101 ex Walsall. Their is also a Rugeley to Wolves on a Saturday evening which is 350 operated, leaving Walsall at 2032. I travelled on that last night and on arrival at New Street it went right to very far end of platform 4B.

Sunday’s all day 350s on the local run. Only Saturday all day 323s, even 2 are booked go to rugley 323s

RealTrains07 · 2 Jun 2019

si404 said:
no. Liverpool is better with 2tph Birmingham than 2tph London avoiding Brum. There's only room north of Crewe for 2 LNWR services.

When there's space post-HS2 phase 2b, then absolutely. But if the demand was London, then they'd have done the change years ago. The Liverpool-New Street-Euston service is about operations (remove terminators from New St, though they have done this in an over-complex way, leading to most of the problems), revenue raiding, and political gimmickry. It's not about Liverpool-London traffic beyond politics and coincidence.

Never said it was, it just makes more sense really, diagramming wise as well

Ianno87 said:
Agree - if it's 2tph the limit, the current 2tph (half an hour apart ish) are probably better than 1+1 (not 30 mins apart) for the 'breaad and butter' LNWR day job.

It was discussed earlier that it should be
2tph, never gas it been suggested that euston-liverpool should be 1tph only

Suggested:
1tph euston - liverpool via brum
1tph euston - liverpool via trent valley

That way still have 2tph at liverpool in a more controlled way northbound and southbound

Better diagramming

be a quicker and lower option

less stress on the birmingham line

Still retains a birmingham service. It could work since it still matches capacity limits at crewe

Ianno87 · 2 Jun 2019

RealTrains07 said:
Never said it was, it just makes more sense really, diagramming wise as well

It was discussed earlier that it should be
2tph, never gas it been suggested that euston-liverpool should be 1tph only

Suggested:
1tph euston - liverpool via brum
1tph euston - liverpool via trent valley

That way still have 2tph at liverpool in a more controlled way northbound and southbound

Better diagramming

be a quicker and lower option

less stress on the birmingham line

Still retains a birmingham service. It could work since it still matches capacity limits at crewe

...but less desirable between (say) Crewe and Liverpool if it's no longer a half-hourly interval as a result.

Admittedly, the Virgin Euston service helps too.

RealTrains07 · 2 Jun 2019

Ianno87 said:
...but less desirable between (say) Crewe and Liverpool if it's no longer a half-hourly interval as a result

If we base it on the timetable as it is now its still near enough half hourly

For example, weekdays between 13:00 and 14:00

1st euston - liverpool via brum train gets into crewe at 13:31

Trent valley trains reaches crewe to terminate at 14:04

Varies a couple of minutes time difference depending on time of day but that could be ironed out

But if the trent valley train went to liverpool you would still get a half hourly operation onwards from stafford to liverpool and back

Ianno87 · 2 Jun 2019

RealTrains07 said:
If we base it on the timetable as it is now its still near enough half hourly

For example, weekdays between 13:00 and 14:00

1st euston - liverpool via brum train gets into crewe at 13:31

Trent valley trains reaches crewe to terminate at 14:04

Varies a couple of minutes time difference depending on time of day but that could be ironed out

But if the trent valley train went to liverpool you would still get a half hourly operation onwards from stafford to liverpool and back

Does't work so cleverly in the other direction - it's either a 15 minute wait with no platform, or a 15/45 split

RealTrains07 · 2 Jun 2019

Ianno87 said:
Does't work so cleverly in the other direction - it's either a 15 minute wait with no platform, or a 15/45 split

That would all depend on the time it would get to liverpool and leave again, predicting the journey back isnt as easy as the journey forward

LNW-GW Joint · 3 Jun 2019

Crewe-Euston service - 8tph off-peak!

xx01 VT via Birmingham, 6 stops, journey time 152 minutes (extended wait at Wolverhampton), ex Scotland
xx01 LM via Stoke, Birmingham, Northampton, 18 stops, 209 minutes
xx19 LM via Birmingham, Northampton, 15 stops, 191 minutes (combines with xx01 ex Crewe LM at Birmingham), ex Liverpool
xx22 VT via Trent Valley, Weedon, 1 stop, 97 minutes, ex Liverpool
xx29 VT via Trent Valley, Weedon, non-stop, 93 minutes, ex Manchester
xx33 LM via Trent Valley, Weedon, 8 stops, 137 minutes
xx50 LM via Birmingham, Northampton, 21 stops, 207 minutes, ex Liverpool
xx56 VT via Trent Valley, Weedon, 1 stop, 101 minutes, ex Chester/North Wales (Voyager)

On top of this, there is the xx40 non-stopper Glasgow-Euston, and the odd Blackpool non-stopper.
Northbound, only 7 through services as one of the Liverpools starts from Birmingham International.

I noticed today that the xx01 via Stoke was actually posted simply as "via Northampton": true but insufficient I'd say.
And, as ever, the operator was not identified on the summary station PIS at Crewe.

From Liverpool today, the 1005 LM to Euston was a very full 8 cars, but most Liverpool services appeared to be 4-car.
Rear unit locked out at Liverpool South Parkway.
Simply announcing the 26 stops at Lime St took a fair while.

700007 · 3 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Again Walsall-Wolves should not be using 350s, it's a waste of them. Get some 319s on those.

Liverpool-Brum seems to have so many issues it shouldn't be interworking with anything at all, bar maybe the International stopper if it is felt best to avoid terminating at New St.

I wasn't aware 350s were operating that service - always was led to think 323s operated it. However if this is indeed the case then I will happily agree with you and say yes this shouldn't be the case. The 350s have better use running the main line with their better ability and comfort.

sufian123 · 3 Jun 2019

700007 said:
I wasn't aware 350s were operating that service - always was led to think 323s operated it. However if this is indeed the case then I will happily agree with you and say yes this shouldn't be the case. The 350s have better use running the main line with their better ability and comfort.

London midland used to do it. Not enough 323s. Now there is no such thing as a local Walsall - wolves diagram as such now. We need to remember Crewe/Liverpool services come to Brum then continue to Northampton/Euston. There is a franchise commitment to run services via these routes as it was in the original DFT bidding requirements. That’s why they can continue to Walsall, freeing 323s for other operation.

700007 · 3 Jun 2019

The issue isn't so much that a train is running Liverpool to Birmingham, Birmingham to London - it's that a 350 which is desperately needed on London services is doing baby work in Birmingham. Whilst I appreciate Birmingham services can and will get busy, London services are currently at the worst end of the stick and overcrowding has become really bad since they cut back the length of certain trains.

In terms of routes you are addressing, it should be, but timetabled in such a manner that it gives even headways and frequencies as much as possible between trains:

1tph London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street via Trent Valley
1tph London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street via Birmingham New Street

Ideally these services should be roughly every 30 minutes between Crewe and Liverpool Lime Street

1tph London Euston to Crewe via Northampton, Birmingham New Street and Stoke-on-Trent

This service should ideally be around every 30 minutes between London Euston and Crewe via Birmingham, to compliment the Liverpool via Birmingham service.

1tph London Euston to Walsall via Birmingham New Street with peak hour extensions to Rugeley if the demand genuinely warrants it
2tph Wolverhampton to Rugeley Trent Valley

Replaces current London to Rugeley service between Rugeley and Walsall as stations north of Walsall are quieter. It adds resilience to the timetable of the main London | Northampton | Birmingham timetable which is the core corridor.

2tph London Euston to Tring
1tph London Euston to Milton Keynes Central

Makes an additional stop at Harrow & Wealdstone.

RealTrains07 · 3 Jun 2019

700007 said:
The issue isn't so much that a train is running Liverpool to Birmingham, Birmingham to London - it's that a 350 which is desperately needed on London services is doing baby work in Birmingham. Whilst I appreciate Birmingham services can and will get busy, London services are currently at the worst end of the stick and overcrowding has become really bad since they cut back the length of certain trains.

In terms of routes you are addressing, it should be, but timetabled in such a manner that it gives even headways and frequencies as much as possible between trains:

1tph London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street via Trent Valley

1tph London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street via Birmingham New Street

Ideally these services should be roughly every 30 minutes between Crewe and Liverpool Lime Street

1tph London Euston to Crewe via Northampton, Birmingham New Street and Stoke-on-Trent

This service should ideally be around every 30 minutes between London Euston and Crewe via Birmingham, to compliment the Liverpool via Birmingham service.

1tph London Euston to Walsall via Birmingham New Street with peak hour extensions to Rugeley if the demand genuinely warrants it

2tph Wolverhampton to Rugeley Trent Valley

Replaces current London to Rugeley service between Rugeley and Walsall as stations north of Walsall are quieter. It adds resilience to the timetable of the main London | Northampton | Birmingham timetable which is the core corridor.

2tph London Euston to Tring

1tph London Euston to Milton Keynes Central

Makes an additional stop at Harrow & Wealdstone.

Do we need wolverhampton to walsall that frequent though?

LNR new WCML timetable, May 2019 (in open data feeds)

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