North of Bedford MML timetable

Nice to have the debate - just shows what a challenge it is all is , in this (retired) life. Thank you all.

VT 390 said:

But there is only really 1tph for Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough and Kettering that can be used to get anywhere north of Kettering as the Corby service is only good for going to Corby. So the only useful service for passengers going north is the Nottingham one.

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Might be wrong but a few years back I seem to remember the Class 170 2 tph north of Bedford service calling all stations alternately to Derby and Nottingham. Seemed a good service and was well used to judge from passengers I saw catching them at Wellingborough

Bald Rick said:

The fast Nottingham follows the ‘slower’ Sheffield which is non-stop to Leicester. That means if you make the fast Nottingham faster, it would be hard on the heels of the slow Sheffield, and thus the latter couldn’t stop anywhere south of Leicester*. Therefore it would have to be the fast Sheffield that made the extra calls. This has two consequences: the journey time would go above the headline 2 hours, and Market Harboros punters from London would have their 2tph at 3/57 min gaps.

* of course they could be swapped round. But then we are into issues at Nottingham, Derby, Sheffield, etc etc.



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But the Midland Mainline timetable is likely to have major changes to it in the future either when the Corby electrics start or when new stock is ordered so perhaps then this will not be an issue.

cle said:

Ahh yes I did mean 4tph north of Kettering as pitiful, was excluding the Corbys.

Re: Project Rio - times change. Derby and Leicester are both big cities, a service would be marketed and permanent (we have decent and mobile internet now, plus Google maps etc) - I'd think direct services to Manchester would be more useful than many existing ones. Many services which weren't viable 10-20 years ago are booming now. Why not try?

I think a fast Leeds service (extending to fastest Sheffield) would be useful too. Some XC relief, some competition - plus Leicester to Leeds as a new pair. And that isn't even an extra path - but the Manchester path would help the intermediate stations too.

More calls at Luton and Bedford would definitely be useful too. Stevenage seems to have retained and boosted its calls, unlike those and of course poor Watford Junction.

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However much your crayons may desire this, I'm sorry to say it's simply not possible. This comes up as some revolutionary new idea every time this is discussed, and whether or not the somewhat shaky economics would work or not is missing the point. There are no spare paths London - Bedford without removing a Sheffield or Nottingham train, which wouldn't be popular/a good idea, and the same again from Dore to Manchester. The Hope Valley is gaining a much needed 3rd path in a few years, which will be used on Manchester to Sheffield, not wasted on Derby/Leicester which are not primary commuting areas for Manchester. Furthermore, there's no spare paths through Stockport as it stands, and the route via Marple is already primed to likely take the 3rd HV fast. In other words, as much as it would be nice to have a Manchester - St Pancras service, it isn't particuarly nescessary and even less possible!

VT 390 said:

But the Midland Mainline timetable is likely to have major changes to it in the future either when the Corby electrics start or when new stock is ordered so perhaps then this will not be an issue.

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The paths south of Bedford are essentially fixed, give or take a few tweaks. What happens north of there is of course up for grabs, but it is interlinked increasingly with XC and Frieght.

ForTheLoveOf said:

The Hope Valley is already at capacity due to the outdated signalling used and the incompatible mix of train types used (expresses, stoppers, freight) on a lengthy two-track railway with few passing loops.

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Er, yes. That is what I was saying. I was not advocating any thoughts of a MML service to Manchester.

ChiefPlanner said:

I have mentioned this before - but when "Project Rio" was running , a careful check was made on "intermediate" traffic to Manchester , excluding the core "London - Manchester" , - whislt accepting it was not really marketed, some people cottoned on to it , but it was around £500K a year or so , - not really enough to make a stand alone service viable.

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[QUOTE="ForTheLoveOf, post: 4035169, member: 57932" The Hope Valley Capacity Scheme is to add capacity for some new services but frankly I think the market for Derby to Manchester services is going to be far smaller than that of the services which the Scheme is intended to enable.[/QUOTE]

As above, I was - originally - not advocating any thoughts of a new MML service to Manchester, in part because I thought it was a) impossible to path and b) because the market is/was too small.

But your reasoning here is flawed and/or arguably out of date. Nobody was saying the Derby - Manchester market would be sufficient to justify a new service.

The original idea (in this thread) was put forward as a way to provide a better Bedford-Wellingborough-Kettering service north of Kettering in the wake of the new Corby electric services. It is the entire MML (either directly, or by changing en route - and not doubling back at Sheffield) that would be served by any new service.

Project Rio was way back (15 years?) in time, and as cle says, passenger demand has shot up since then. Furthermore, it was not only not marketed to MML passengers, it was often very unreliable, certainly in the early days, with repeated cancellations. And I forget, did it stop at Chesterfield? If not, it meant the only feeder from the MML was Leicester. Yes, an important traffic generator (at least potentially), but stopping there alone does not serve Derby (nor Loughborough or Chesterfield) - that's a serious chunk of potential MML passenger traffic ruled out.

Will any player out there initiate such a service? Not in the foreseeable future, I agree. There are no paths. I accept that. But to use figures/research data from a service introduced 15 years ago which was designed in a way so as NOT to serve MML passengers (and botched at that), while not totally irrelevant, is hardly the best way to judge if such a service could be viable today.

The idea of extending 1 TPH Sheffield to Leeds via Barnsley - and replacing an existing service on that route - appears to have more merit and potential to be realised.

I can't see the Leeds extensions being an all-day service because that would need extra trains to be leased as well as extra paths that don't exist (Northern will run an hourly Connect via Swinton as well as the one via Barnsley).

I suspect they will be more like what there is now - early and late services using units that would otherwise be sitting in depot, rather like the EMT Lincoln service. There could be some northbound Leeds trains in the morning (but quite early!) and southbound ones in the evening (but quite late!), as the trains will probably be based in the Sheffield-Derby-Nottingham area rather than Neville Hill.

edwin_m said:

I can't see the Leeds extensions being an all-day service because that would need extra trains to be leased as well as extra paths that don't exist (Northern will run an hourly Connect via Swinton as well as the one via Barnsley).

I suspect they will be more like what there is now - early and late services using units that would otherwise be sitting in depot, rather like the EMT Lincoln service. There could be some northbound Leeds trains in the morning (but quite early!) and southbound ones in the evening (but quite late!), as the trains will probably be based in the Sheffield-Derby-Nottingham area rather than Neville Hill.

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As Northern run 2 limited stop trains via Barnsley the Lincoln one could remain as it is but the second one (which I think will terminate at Sheffield once the Nottingham ones go via Westgate) could be replaced with an East Midlands service.

I thought pathing issues had stopped the Nottingham service being sent via Westgate?

If Bi modes come out, couldn't they just loop round Leicester to Corby and vice versa? Then you could do away with the EMU's altogether.

Glenn1969 said:

I thought pathing issues had stopped the Nottingham service being sent via Westgate?

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As I understand it they have bid for paths for it from December, and seem to be expecting to get them.

richieb1971 said:

If Bi modes come out, couldn't they just loop round Leicester to Corby and vice versa? Then you could do away with the EMU's altogether.

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The demand simply isn't there, Oakham and Melton are small market towns and a Corby to Leicester journey would be faster via Kettering. They would spend a good proportion of the time carrying fresh air, and there isn't the capacity between Kettering and Leicester for a fifth passenger path anyway.

43074 said:

As I understand it they have bid for paths for it from December, and seem to be expecting to get them.



The demand simply isn't there, Oakham and Melton are small market towns and a Corby to Leicester journey would be faster via Kettering. They would spend a good proportion of the time carrying fresh air, and there isn't the capacity between Kettering and Leicester for a fifth passenger path anyway.

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It means Bedford passengers don't need a change though, requires no emu stock and provides new services. Leicester to London via Corby would not carry fresh air.

It would also provide a local service Corby- Oakham- Melton- Leicester but surely if there was demand for that it would already be operating?

richieb1971 said:

It means Bedford passengers don't need a change though, requires no emu stock and provides new services. Leicester to London via Corby would not carry fresh air.

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No they wouldn't between Kettering and London...

Glenn1969 said:

It would also provide a local service Corby- Oakham- Melton- Leicester but surely if there was demand for that it would already be operating?

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Exactly, the two trains per day between Corby and the Oakham line should be an indication of the demand that exists...

Maybe more trains are required in the peaks between Oakham and Leicester, but additional Cambridge to Birmingham services would be a better use of paths there IMO, the all day demand doesn't need 2tph.

Glenn1969 said:

It would also provide a local service Corby- Oakham- Melton- Leicester but surely if there was demand for that it would already be operating?

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43074 said:

No they wouldn't between Kettering and London...

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Perhaps if this service operated they could offer cheaper advanced fares from Leicester to London this way to fill it up a bit as well as freeing up some space on the services via Market Harborough.

43074 said:

Exactly, the two trains per day between Corby and the Oakham line should be an indication of the demand that exists...

Maybe more trains are required in the peaks between Oakham and Leicester, but additional Cambridge to Birmingham services would be a better use of paths there IMO, the all day demand doesn't need 2tph.

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I would tend to agree on Brum - Cambridge being a tad underserved (slightly of topic) , as it has always been a very busy route - even (dare I say it) , back in BR days. Awful lot of development on that corridor IMHO

ChiefPlanner said:

I would tend to agree on Brum - Cambridge being a tad underserved (slightly of topic) , as it has always been a very busy route - even (dare I say it) , back in BR days. Awful lot of development on that corridor IMHO

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I’m not sure about it being very busy in BR days Guv’. I was a regular commuter Melton - Birmingham in the latter days of BR. Starting with Modernisation Plan DMUs, then 156s and latterly 158s,always 2 car. Guaranteed a seat on the morning peak trains to Birmingham unless you were boarding at Nuneaton on a busy day and amongst the last to get on. Departing Birmingham on the pm peak trains, standing was a rarity, and usually confined to Fridays around holiday weekends.

I do have fond memories of that commute though, just over an hour from New St to Melton Mowbray on a nearly new 158.

Up thread it was mentioned that the residents of Bedford are not very happy at this time with the level of service they receive.

Well they are going to be even more unhappy as come the 24th June one of the main roads into Bedford is going to be closed for roughly a year for the reconstruction of the Bromham Rd Bridge.

Those poor Bedford residents.

Bald Rick said:

I’m not sure about it being very busy in BR days Guv’. I was a regular commuter Melton - Birmingham in the latter days of BR. Starting with Modernisation Plan DMUs, then 156s and latterly 158s,always 2 car. Guaranteed a seat on the morning peak trains to Birmingham unless you were boarding at Nuneaton on a busy day and amongst the last to get on. Departing Birmingham on the pm peak trains, standing was a rarity, and usually confined to Fridays around holiday weekends.

I do have fond memories of that commute though, just over an hour from New St to Melton Mowbray on a nearly new 158.

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I should have been more specific by saying that that even in BR days , Nuneaton to Brum was the busy bit. Traversed it by default on Friday from Leicester to Brum on a 2 car 170 , and was surprised - nay impressed - as to how busy an off peak service was. Anyway - off topic.